Brady or Belichick

[SheriffJoe]

wasnt 'his guy'? LOL!!!!!! you mean he couldnt 'mold' him to become a star? .... needed a more TALENTED guy?

joe, can you make an effort to explain the 'GOAT's' 42-58 record pre- Brady?

its a toughie for sure, what's the appropriate narrative to take?

..........

(Joe, why were the Kinga a competitive team once Gretz arrived? who was more instrumental Glen Sather or Wayne Gretzky , lol. Deep breadth, its not that tough a question, unless you're an idiot

When Mario arrived in Pittsburgh , u think the HC lucked out? or did he 'find his guy', not-inherited,lol?

Okay, so about Belichick and that misleading 42-58 record. You do know if you give a coach absolute crap he's not going to turn it around and win instantly, right?

A little history for people obsessed with this "sans-Brady" nonsense...

Belichick built the foundation for the successful future Ravens while he was in Cleveland. He got shafted by the sudden move - hey, remember what I said about shitty unstable ownership? - but he hired a lot of the personnel. He also left them with two first rounders that turned into two HOFers... picks made by the people he hired. Moreover, he was the last head coach to win a playoff game for the Browns... over Parcells' Pats.

Oh, and he also famously bench washed Browns fans favorite Bernie Kosar, giving us a preview of his don't-give-a-fuck-who-you-are attitude, which would later become the "The Patriot Way" in New England.

Bottom line, he left that dumpster fire of a franchise in good shape, while long suffering Browns fans can only dream what may have been.

PS - Sather has more cups than Gretzky. LOL And as for Mario...how many HOFers did he play with? You're not making this easy on yourself.

 

[Willie99]

Just grow up and stop trying to diminish the GOAT's accomplishments. Growing pains, learning curve, Cleveland Browns.......

Two GOATS came together

Belichick won in the era of free agency when most of the rocket scientists disparaging him today mocked him relentlessly for every bad move THEY naively thought he made. Including this year

Too the moon Alice

 

[Ricboff]

That's not the point of the discussion . The point is who's more important - an elite coach or an elite star .

Elite star


Waiting on joes explaination on beli poor record pre - Brady . Your's is a good one , even at age 50 and coached all his life he was still an apprentice ? Let's go with that Joe

 

[PatsFan1283]

Okay, so about Belichick and that misleading 42-58 record. You do know if you give a coach absolute crap he's not going to turn it around and win instantly, right?

A little history for people obsessed with this "sans-Brady" nonsense...

Belichick built the foundation for the successful future Ravens while he was in Cleveland. He got shafted by the sudden move - hey, remember what I said about shitty unstable ownership? - but he hired a lot of the personnel. He also left them with two first rounders that turned into two HOFers... picks made by the people he hired. Moreover, he was the last head coach to win a playoff game for the Browns... over Parcells' Pats.

Oh, and he also famously bench washed Browns fans favorite Bernie Kosar, giving us a preview of his don't-give-a-fuck-who-you-are attitude, which would later become the "The Patriot Way" in New England.

Bottom line, he left that dumpster fire of a franchise in good shape, while long suffering Browns fans can only dream what may have been.

PS - Sather has more cups than Gretzky. LOL And as for Mario...how many HOFers did he play with? You're not making this easy on yourself.

The Browns were 1 of the best teams in the AFC in the 80's, hard to say it was a crap job when he was coach for half a decade. Guess what? Most 1st time coaches don't get great jobs. It is 100 games, 6+ seasons including 1st 18 games with NE. Not like there is some cherry picking going on. It is a huge sample and is all the data we have pre-Brady. Yes, obviously it isn't indicative of how he would do over 100 games today.

So Belichick was not in a precarious position in 2001 staring at 2 straight losing seasons and a second straight failed coaching gig before Brady tookover?

You attribute all of Brady's success to Belichick (even your "he brought the Pats playbook with him to TB" quip which is a reach at best) yet none of Belichick's to Brady because you have it in your head he would've come up roses either way.

Which is fine, but can't you just outright say "Brady was disposable, he would've found someone else because he's Bill Belichick and the cream would inevitably rise to the top"? , it would atleast represent your opinion better than some of the tap dancing going on.

I feel like that is the argument/statement you are looking for but you just keep sidestepping it.

 

[Willie99]

This is what my GIF is supposed to look like

 

[Ricboff]

Okay, so about Belichick and that misleading 42-58 record. You do know if you give a coach absolute crap he's not going to turn it around and win instantly, right?

A little history for people obsessed with this "sans-Brady" nonsense...

Belichick built the foundation for the successful future Ravens while he was in Cleveland. He got shafted by the sudden move - hey, remember what I said about shitty unstable ownership? - but he hired a lot of the personnel. He also left them with two first rounders that turned into two HOFers... picks made by the people he hired. Moreover, he was the last head coach to win a playoff game for the Browns... over Parcells' Pats.

Oh, and he also famously bench washed Browns fans favorite Bernie Kosar, giving us a preview of his don't-give-a-fuck-who-you-are attitude, which would later become the "The Patriot Way" in New England.

Bottom line, he left that dumpster fire of a franchise in good shape, while long suffering Browns fans can only dream what may have been.

PS - Sather has more cups than Gretzky. LOL And as for Mario...how many HOFers did he play with? You're not making this easy on yourse
CI global alpha innovators - 14%Okay, so about Belichick and that misleading 42-58 record. You do know if you give a coach absolute crap he's not going to turn it around and win instantly, right?

A little history for people obsessed with this "sans-Brady" nonsense...

Belichick built the foundation for the successful future Ravens while he was in Cleveland. He got shafted by the sudden move - hey, remember what I said about shitty unstable ownership? - but he hired a lot of the personnel. He also left them with two first rounders that turned into two HOFers... picks made by the people he hired. Moreover, he was the last head coach to win a playoff game for the Browns... over Parcells' Pats.

Oh, and he also famously bench washed Browns fans favorite Bernie Kosar, giving us a preview of his don't-give-a-fuck-who-you-are attitude, which would later become the "The Patriot Way" in New England.

Bottom line, he left that dumpster fire of a franchise in good shape, while long suffering Browns fans can onl

Okay, so about Belichick and that misleading 42-58 record. You do know if you give a coach absolute crap he's not going to turn it around and win instantly, right?

A little history for people obsessed with this "sans-Brady" nonsense...

Belichick built the foundation for the successful future Ravens while he was in Cleveland. He got shafted by the sudden move - hey, remember what I said about shitty unstable ownership? - but he hired a lot of the personnel. He also left them with two first rounders that turned into two HOFers... picks made by the people he hired. Moreover, he was the last head coach to win a playoff game for the Browns... over Parcells' Pats.

Oh, and he also famously bench washed Browns fans favorite Bernie Kosar, giving us a preview of his don't-give-a-fuck-who-you-are attitude, which would later become the "The Patriot Way" in New England.

Bottom line, he left that dumpster fire of a franchise in good shape, while long suffering Browns fans can only dream what may have been.

PS - Sather has more cups than Gretzky. LOL And as for Mario...how many HOFers did he play with? You're not making this easy on yourself.

doubling down...tripling down haha

lets try again and see if he answers directly this time

who was more instrumental in the Oiler dynasty Gretz or Sather?

need a name

as for Beli record pre-brady? it speaks for itself , you should have stuck with Willie's excuse . (btw- to be clear im not ripping Beli, u take Brady not Beli...u take Jordan not Jackson, u take Gretz not Sather....guys , cmon, this aint rocket science ........)

 

[SheriffJoe]

The Browns were 1 of the best teams in the AFC in the 80's, hard to say it was a crap job when he was coach for half a decade. Guess what? Most 1st time coaches don't get great jobs. It is 100 games, 6+ seasons including 1st 18 games with NE. Not like there is some cherry picking going on. It is a huge sample and is all the data we have pre-Brady. Yes, obviously it isn't indicative of how he would do over 100 games today.

So Belichick was not in a precarious position in 2001 staring at 2 straight losing seasons and a second straight failed coaching gig before Brady tookover?

You attribute all of Brady's success to Belichick (even your "he brought the Pats playbook with him to TB" quip which is a reach at best) yet none of Belichick's to Brady because you have it in your head he would've come up roses either way.

Which is fine, but can't you just outright say "Brady was disposable, he would've found someone else because he's Bill Belichick and the cream would inevitably rise to the top"? , it would atleast represent your opinion better than some of the tap dancing going on.

I feel like that is the argument/statement you are looking for but you just keep sidestepping it.

I never said Brady was disposable, but when a player is taken 199th overall he's nowhere close to a finished product. If Brady hadn't been willing to be a sponge soaking up everything Belichick was teaching him, BB would have pitched him overboard and then what? Brady would have landed as the starter in another organization and won 7 SBs?

Brady is the GOAT because he made himself the ultimate student toward the ultimate teacher. What Brady lacked in raw athletic ability he made up in his willingness to take care of his body, study, work hard, listen... watching endless film and time spent with Belichick in his office strategizing and 'thinking' the game.

Speaking of thinking and strategizing, it's been mentioned before, but the offense is less than a third of a team's success. So how could anyone make the argument Brady was the straw that stirred Belichick's drink? Just by the nature of the game, he can't.

Here's Peyton Manning explaining how Belichick's ingenious defense schemes were even too much for him to handle...

Peyton Manning explains why it was 'exhausting' facing Bill Belichick's defenses

“On any given play that can be in a four-down, even front, three-down, odd front. Every single play, you are working.”

patriotswire.usatoday.com

Finally, did Brady not take Gronk with him to Tampa? Yes, and the NE playbook. Arians is a buffoon, so now Brady has the control he didn't have in New England. Now he gets to be like Peyton Manning in the huddle calling his own plays with more input in player personnel, the kind of autonomy he obviously never could have in New England.

 

[Michelangelo]

The NFL ain't hockey, Ric. And its not the NBA either.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Offense is not less than a third of a teams success,. If that is the case then all coaches are > all QB's. Also, Brady (and other elite QB's like him) is 1 of the most impactful defensive players because of his gravity and how it sets up the game (as all great QB's are)....There is some philosophy for ya but anyway....

Forget who is more "valuable" to NE for a second, I've already said if you think it is BB just because he has more hands in more cookie jars as it relates to his job title then fine.

All I'm saying is for someone like myself, it is easy to concede being the 199th pick in the draft means the odds are stacked against you. I've said I think Brady would've gotten a chance with another team given QB climate/scarcity at the time and how guys coming into the league with little pedigree/credential were getting chances and some were even becoming stars, how that works out for him specifically? I dunno, but I don't think he is "selling insurance in a year" ......But yes, Brady definitely hit a homerun going to BB/NE.

But why isn't this true vice versa? BB was not BB on September 20th, 2001. He was a successful DC that had failed as HC and was on his way to having another challenging year. Saddled with a overpaid QB that he couldn't get to play his way for the life of him, on a team that was 0-2 (how many 0-2 teams make the playoffs even?) and 5-11 the year before.

If he doesn't find Tom Brady, what makes you think he finds another QB in 2001? Maybe he doesn't need 1 for a few years, maybe he wins some then regresses, maybe he gets fired and wins with another team. How is his success in any way preordained? Why isn't the last few paragraphs that I typed true?

All this Patriot Way, Belichick Way didn't exist before him. He helped mold and create it.

 

[SheriffJoe]

doubling down...tripling down haha

lets try again and see if he answers directly this time

who was more instrumental in the Oiler dynasty Gretz or Sather?

need a name

Yep, doubling and tripling down on inconvenient truths.

Both Mark Messier and Glen Sather were more instrumental to those Oilers cups than Gretzky. Wait...WHAT??? Yep, Sather has one more cup and Messier boasts two more than the "Great One."

Tell us exactly what Wayne did in LA, St Louis and NY again?

 

[Ricboff]

The NFL ain't hockey, Ric. And its not the NBA either.

k, all 3 are team sports , share that commonality. Impact of an elite player is greater in the NFl (QB) , NBA than in hockey. Hockey is more like soccer. In hockey you role 4 lines .

Now what r you sayin, exactly ?

 

[Ricboff]

Yep, doubling and tripling down on inconvenient truths.

Both Mark Messier and Glen Sather were more instrumental to those Oilers cups than Gretzky. Wait...WHAT??? Yep, Sather has one more cup and Messier boasts two more than the "Great One."

Tell us exactly what Wayne did in LA, St Louis and NY again?

NO they werent, Joe. Your barometer is who won more Cups? Sather had a stacked team , with a generational player -- NO PERSON would say Sather was more important that Gretz. Put Sather coaching the Leafs team at the time and you woulnt even know his name. I knew you'd as answer as such and wanted to expose how stupid u r, just a loon kid

Wayne literally changed the fortunes of LA. They reached Lord Stanley finals largely because of him. They were a BOTTOM dweller. The coach of LA ( u remember his name ? had success ,reached a SC final because of Wayne . And because they didnt win Lord Stanley , you respond-- 'tell us exactly what Wayne did in LA, St L, NY again'--

nailed it-- u never coached a day in your life or played sport at a rep level. Dr Love was right, you're retarded

 

[SheriffJoe]

Hey Ricboff, if Sather had a 'stacked' team, then Gretzky had same said stacked team...which explains why Gretzky never won anything outside of Edmonton. LOL Thanks for making my point, Einstein. You need Messiers in the playoffs to win cups, less Gretzkys. Are you confusing hockey with figure skating? But, but, but...Patrick Roy dummied poor Wayne in the finals! Oh well, at least he put "hockey on the map" in LA! Embarrassing!

And yes, the Benchmark is championships - always championships (and the ingredients that go into them). Bill Belichick agrees with me.

PatsFan, I think you're partially right. Offense IS less than 1/3 of the game. Look at the Chiefs D early season versus now - tale of two seasons. If they didn't fix their D, Mahomes would falter since he can't be expected to put 40+ points every single game, which exactly what happened early as the Chiefs were struggling under .500. Defense and special teams play a pivotal role..as well as turnovers.

As for the coach being more valuable than the QB, that was never the debate. It depends on the SPECIFIC coach and QB. Are we comparing Tom Brady to Jeff Fisher? Peyton Manning to (pick your favorite Lions coach). Different debate.

Name an NFL player more valuable than Bill Belichick?

 

[Ricboff]

'Hey Ricboff, if Sather had a 'stacked' team, then Gretzky had same said stacked team...which explains why Gretzky never won anything outside of Edmonton. LOL Thanks for making my point, Einstein. You need Messiers in the playoffs to win cups, less Gretzkys. Are you confusing hockey with figure skating? But, but, but...Patrick Roy dummied poor Wayne in the finals! Oh well, at least he put "hockey on the map" in LA! Embarrassing! ''

geesus fuckin christ, you have no idea now much you're exposing urself .

stopped reading after this , sorry man .

 

[PatsFan1283]

Offense is not less than 1/3rd of the game and no one reading this thread would agree with that, but whatever, I don't really have much desire to spend another 5 pages debating what drives winning in the NFL. We generally agree both of these guys are monsters anyway, but you guys gloss over simple truths about the Brady/BB timeline.

I've asked this now 6 or 7 times, you've glossed over it every single time. I don't know why, it isn't the hardest question. I don't even care what your answer is and it isn't some type of gotcha.....

Do you not agree that Belichick pre-Brady was in a precarious position? He's 5-11, 0-2, has no track record of success as a HC. Why doesn't he "need" Brady at that point as equally as vice versa? Why do you just assume he would come up roses? He's just that good and would find a way, his success was preordained no matter if he gets Tom Brady or not? Seems like a difficult spot at a difficult point in his career, to say the least.

Like I said, who needed who in 2001 seems like a push at best yet you guys want it to be 1 way (irrespective of who you think was more valuable over the next 19 years)

 

[PatsFan1283]

'Hey Ricboff, if Sather had a 'stacked' team, then Gretzky had same said stacked team...which explains why Gretzky never won anything outside of Edmonton. LOL Thanks for making my point, Einstein. You need Messiers in the playoffs to win cups, less Gretzkys. Are you confusing hockey with figure skating? But, but, but...Patrick Roy dummied poor Wayne in the finals! Oh well, at least he put "hockey on the map" in LA! Embarrassing! ''

geesus fuckin christ, you have no idea now much you're exposing urself .

stopped reading after this , sorry man .

Maybe we need a separate thread

Gretzky vs Sather

not sure it would get 15 pages tho lol

 

[SheriffJoe]

'Hey Ricboff, if Sather had a 'stacked' team, then Gretzky had same said stacked team...which explains why Gretzky never won anything outside of Edmonton. LOL Thanks for making my point, Einstein. You need Messiers in the playoffs to win cups, less Gretzkys. Are you confusing hockey with figure skating? But, but, but...Patrick Roy dummied poor Wayne in the finals! Oh well, at least he put "hockey on the map" in LA! Embarrassing! ''

geesus fuckin christ, you have no idea now much you're exposing urself .

stopped reading after this , sorry man .

Good.

Stick to figure skating and house league, where everyone gets their trophy.

Loser.

 

[Ricboff]

'

Good.

Stick to figure skating and house league, where everyone gets their trophy.

Loser.

says the guy who never coached or played sport , oh the irony .

never too old Joe, try coaching, it will give you a better perspective.

 

[Ricboff]

Maybe we need a separate thread

Gretzky vs Sather

not sure it would get 15 pages tho lol

the only person on planet earth that would take Sather over Gretz is The Rx Loon , Sheriif Joe. Sather won one more Cup, hence more valuable. Im serious

im fuckin pissed i wasted my time responding. FUCKIN pissed, wont happen again

 

[SheriffJoe]

Offense is not less than 1/3rd of the game and no one reading this thread would agree with that, but whatever, I don't really have much desire to spend another 5 pages debating what drives winning in the NFL. We generally agree both of these guys are monsters anyway, but you guys gloss over simple truths about the Brady/BB timeline.

I've asked this now 6 or 7 times, you've glossed over it every single time. I don't know why, it isn't the hardest question. I don't even care what your answer is and it isn't some type of gotcha.....

Do you not agree that Belichick pre-Brady was in a precarious position? He's 5-11, 0-2, has no track record of success as a HC. Why doesn't he "need" Brady at that point as equally as vice versa? Why do you just assume he would come up roses? He's just that good and would find a way, his success was preordained no matter if he gets Tom Brady or not? Seems like a difficult spot at a difficult point in his career, to say the least.

Like I said, who needed who in 2001 seems like a push at best yet you guys want it to be 1 way (irrespective of who you think was more valuable over the next 19 years)

So the original question was, "who has had a bigger impact on the other guys success?"

Belichick obviously, since Brady at the pivotal moment you cited is a guy drafted 199th overall. I understand you taking offense to the "Brady could have ended up an insurance salesman" quip but when a player is taken that low, that's basically what he is, backed by a league consensus.

So Belichick goes 5-11, so we'll say similar to the season he had with Cam Newton. At that point we know Bledsoe clearly isn't his guy (despite him still being a fan favorite). Would he have found a QB? Why wouldn't he? Would he have traded for one? Probably not, I'm guessing he would have drafted one with the traits he looks for to be molded like Brady and Mac.

What's your point?