"that wasn't the problem, finding more outs i mean, it's just that i really like bowmans and had the utmost respect for them..."
I fully understand exactly where you are coming from. For all their faults, Bowmans is an excellent book IMO. I never had to worry about them going out of biz or giving me the whole check is in the mail garbage. I always received a check in a few days no matter the amount. Thats the reason it took me so long to leave there. But I will say this, I always thought that their lines were a little on the fishy side.
Its a tough decision, because they are a very respectable book, even with all the games they decide to play
I fully understand exactly where you are coming from. For all their faults, Bowmans is an excellent book IMO. I never had to worry about them going out of biz or giving me the whole check is in the mail garbage. I always received a check in a few days no matter the amount. Thats the reason it took me so long to leave there. But I will say this, I always thought that their lines were a little on the fishy side.
Its a tough decision, because they are a very respectable book, even with all the games they decide to play
you should really start a thread stating what you just said...
a lot of players don't realize that their books are offering dual lines (1 for recreational players, 1 for who the books deem to be sharps)
most recreational players don't care about this (and this is just another example of why most bettors never make any money, sorry, it's true)
but this drives pros and serious part-timers nuts....
we always find other places to play, of course, we only care so much because it can be a good indication usually of which books are more reputable and honest, and which aren't....
that's why it was such a surprise when i found out about bowmans (again, before you think i'm slamming bowman in every way, please read my above posts. i'm not. i still recommend them for recreational bettors).
i'm not familiar with MVP, i've never bet there. but i'm sure if there are any serious players out there who have recently utilized MVP for one of their outs, it may take them a few weeks to realize this on their own.
you might want to start a thread to announce, you could really help some guys out. just a suggestion.
a lot of players don't realize that their books are offering dual lines (1 for recreational players, 1 for who the books deem to be sharps)
most recreational players don't care about this (and this is just another example of why most bettors never make any money, sorry, it's true)
but this drives pros and serious part-timers nuts....
we always find other places to play, of course, we only care so much because it can be a good indication usually of which books are more reputable and honest, and which aren't....
that's why it was such a surprise when i found out about bowmans (again, before you think i'm slamming bowman in every way, please read my above posts. i'm not. i still recommend them for recreational bettors).
i'm not familiar with MVP, i've never bet there. but i'm sure if there are any serious players out there who have recently utilized MVP for one of their outs, it may take them a few weeks to realize this on their own.
you might want to start a thread to announce, you could really help some guys out. just a suggestion.
Christian, make it your top priority to beat this book or move on. I love all books, give me a line I will play or pass. Nothing to be gained for bashing a book who has had enough of you. I am sure a player as prolific as you are can meet any rollover and find some value somewhere to finish this. There are hundreds of other books, a handful almost as safe.
i never said that each sportsbook should be obligated to only give out one line to all its players....it's their book, they can run it how they like. i never said otherwise.
and i never said that what they're doing is illegal....it's just unethical (in my opinion anyways)
it's leads to the inevitable follow-up question that bowmans has to answer now which is, "well, if they're willing to sneak dual lines....what else would they be willing to do?"
my only point of all this was to, basically, give bowmans a back-handed compliment.
they should have been impressed that i was so upset at them for doing this. when i found out royal sports does it (as do many less reputable books) i just laughed and said, "no surprise there"
but when i found out bowmans did it, i was actually disappointed that they would feel the need to do that. to risk their reputation for such a trivial gain.
i'll still keep an account at bowmans, and i'll still check their lines every day looking for value. i'm sure i'll find something worthwhile every now and then. it just won't be anywhere near as often now as it had been in the past (because of their significantly shorted underdog values)....
but i'm sure bowmans couldn't care less. i'm sure they're happy that i won't play there as much...
but the unintended consequences they don't realize is that now, bowmans, yes bowmans, is mentioned in the same breath, albeit very softly (for now at least) as a 'royal sports' and from what i've been hearing 'mvp' and a dozen other scams waiting to happen.
p.s. as i've said though, i will still continue to recommend them for recreational gamblers without hesitation.
and i never said that what they're doing is illegal....it's just unethical (in my opinion anyways)
it's leads to the inevitable follow-up question that bowmans has to answer now which is, "well, if they're willing to sneak dual lines....what else would they be willing to do?"
my only point of all this was to, basically, give bowmans a back-handed compliment.
they should have been impressed that i was so upset at them for doing this. when i found out royal sports does it (as do many less reputable books) i just laughed and said, "no surprise there"
but when i found out bowmans did it, i was actually disappointed that they would feel the need to do that. to risk their reputation for such a trivial gain.
i'll still keep an account at bowmans, and i'll still check their lines every day looking for value. i'm sure i'll find something worthwhile every now and then. it just won't be anywhere near as often now as it had been in the past (because of their significantly shorted underdog values)....
but i'm sure bowmans couldn't care less. i'm sure they're happy that i won't play there as much...
but the unintended consequences they don't realize is that now, bowmans, yes bowmans, is mentioned in the same breath, albeit very softly (for now at least) as a 'royal sports' and from what i've been hearing 'mvp' and a dozen other scams waiting to happen.
p.s. as i've said though, i will still continue to recommend them for recreational gamblers without hesitation.
well, to make things easy...once i called them, their account manager admitted to it. but i'll explain how i first discovered it.
normally, the first thing i do when i load a books home page is log-in (like most people do) but this particular time i forgot to log in and i went straight to checking lines....
i found BUF +10 (last night's game) and this was exactly what i was looking for (everything i could find at my outs was +9.5). i went to make the bet but then i realized i had to log-in....
as soon as i did, the line moved to 9.5 instantly. 1 of 2 possibilites now:
1) either the line just happened to change, bad luck in my case
2) they knew my betting history, had me on a different line and had shorted certain underdogs
i just had a bad gut feeling that it was the 2nd scenario. so i went to bowmans.com again and didn't log in again. i checked the live lines, and still it was buffalo +10....
i then logged into my bowmans account and it went back to +9.5. so now i knew something was going on.
i then called a friend of mine who has an account there (he's just a recreational gambler, not a pro) and he checked his account....
sure enough, his screen showed +10.
i even went so far as to open a new account in a new name just to see what line would be offered......yep.....BUF +10.
so i called customer service and of course the reps denied it (they're local nationals though, so in fairness, maybe they don't even know about this stuff. they just read what their computers tell them)
i knew they were lying so i asked to speak to an account manager (an american) and he was honest about. told me i had been deemed a "sharp" player and would now be given a different set of lines to bet against.
so, like i said, bowmans account manager admitted to it. a lot of books do this, they just don't advertise it (obviously). but it's usually only the smaller, less reputable ones that do it.
very rarely, will you find a true top-notch book (i.e. pinnacle, canbet, wsex, sportingbet, etc.) that would do this.
so, there you have it. the whole background on this. you always hear guys complaining about stall tactics and trying to place wagers and then having the line change instantly against them....they always think there's some conspiracy to keep them from winning. but usually they're just paranoid or full of sh*t.
but the dual lines (1 for rec. gamblers, 1 for those they deem to be sharp) is very real, and unfortunate. it just gives a bad overall impression of that particular book (in my opinion).
i hope this helps....
normally, the first thing i do when i load a books home page is log-in (like most people do) but this particular time i forgot to log in and i went straight to checking lines....
i found BUF +10 (last night's game) and this was exactly what i was looking for (everything i could find at my outs was +9.5). i went to make the bet but then i realized i had to log-in....
as soon as i did, the line moved to 9.5 instantly. 1 of 2 possibilites now:
1) either the line just happened to change, bad luck in my case
2) they knew my betting history, had me on a different line and had shorted certain underdogs
i just had a bad gut feeling that it was the 2nd scenario. so i went to bowmans.com again and didn't log in again. i checked the live lines, and still it was buffalo +10....
i then logged into my bowmans account and it went back to +9.5. so now i knew something was going on.
i then called a friend of mine who has an account there (he's just a recreational gambler, not a pro) and he checked his account....
sure enough, his screen showed +10.
i even went so far as to open a new account in a new name just to see what line would be offered......yep.....BUF +10.
so i called customer service and of course the reps denied it (they're local nationals though, so in fairness, maybe they don't even know about this stuff. they just read what their computers tell them)
i knew they were lying so i asked to speak to an account manager (an american) and he was honest about. told me i had been deemed a "sharp" player and would now be given a different set of lines to bet against.
so, like i said, bowmans account manager admitted to it. a lot of books do this, they just don't advertise it (obviously). but it's usually only the smaller, less reputable ones that do it.
very rarely, will you find a true top-notch book (i.e. pinnacle, canbet, wsex, sportingbet, etc.) that would do this.
so, there you have it. the whole background on this. you always hear guys complaining about stall tactics and trying to place wagers and then having the line change instantly against them....they always think there's some conspiracy to keep them from winning. but usually they're just paranoid or full of sh*t.
but the dual lines (1 for rec. gamblers, 1 for those they deem to be sharp) is very real, and unfortunate. it just gives a bad overall impression of that particular book (in my opinion).
i hope this helps....
Christian said:
Actually, Christian, this is untrue. Generally, the smaller books don't have the smarts or the resources to offer (and monitor/update) a second set of lines.
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It may surprise you to know that, in addition to Bowmans, some of the other books that deal dual lines include: WWTS/BetCorp/Sinter, Bet365, First Fidelity, VO Group/V-Wager/MVP, BoDog, VIP/Gameday/WSSB/Fairdeal ... as well as one of the books that you mentioned, Sportingbet (Sportingbet.com, not SportingbetUSA). There are several more.
These books are not "smaller" or "less reputable", but they are certainly not "sharp-friendly" ... and this is one of the ways that they keep the "sharps" at bay.
thanks for the info halifax, it didin't surprise me one bit to see the list of books that offer dual lines.....none of those are 'outs' i use, so obviously i didn't know any of them did that.
the only regular outs of mine that do this are bowmans and royal (i don't use royal anymore however, too many bad rumors)
i've used sportingbet.com in the past and i never caught them doing it. maybe they just don't do it that often, but i always check periodically to see if my books are shading the line against me. so i WAS surprised to hear about sportingbet.com
sorry if you didn't like my use of "less reputable" but that is honestly how i would classify it. but i can see how others would disagree. what most people call "non-sharp friendly" i consider to "unethical". that's just how i see things.
if a bookmaker knows what he's doing, his sharp players can and should become his best friends. he should learn to value their opinions and their wagers a hundred times more than what the other 90% of the bettors are doing....
they should learn adjust their lines to make things worse for the betting public rather than the sharps....but so few bookmakers realize this. they just naturally assume (incorrectly so) that a sharp player who wins consistently will always hurt his bottom line....
not true, if the bookmaker knows what he's doing.
oh well. just my thoughts. thanks for the info, i'll be sure to avoid every book you mentioned! great info.
the only regular outs of mine that do this are bowmans and royal (i don't use royal anymore however, too many bad rumors)
i've used sportingbet.com in the past and i never caught them doing it. maybe they just don't do it that often, but i always check periodically to see if my books are shading the line against me. so i WAS surprised to hear about sportingbet.com
sorry if you didn't like my use of "less reputable" but that is honestly how i would classify it. but i can see how others would disagree. what most people call "non-sharp friendly" i consider to "unethical". that's just how i see things.
if a bookmaker knows what he's doing, his sharp players can and should become his best friends. he should learn to value their opinions and their wagers a hundred times more than what the other 90% of the bettors are doing....
they should learn adjust their lines to make things worse for the betting public rather than the sharps....but so few bookmakers realize this. they just naturally assume (incorrectly so) that a sharp player who wins consistently will always hurt his bottom line....
not true, if the bookmaker knows what he's doing.
oh well. just my thoughts. thanks for the info, i'll be sure to avoid every book you mentioned! great info.
I know what you're saying when you consider them "less reputable" ... they're certainly not Pinnacle or Olympic or WSEX ... but you will get paid from these places, just like you will from the Grade A books.
The biggest piss off about some of the ones I mentioned, like Bet365 and Gameday, is that they will not only give you dual lines, but if you continue to win, they will also cut your limits to a non-functional level. It's not enough that they need to do one or the other ... they've got to do both ... that is what's chickenshit. Bowmans may give dual lines, but at least they still let you place a decent-sized bet if you want to.
The biggest piss off about some of the ones I mentioned, like Bet365 and Gameday, is that they will not only give you dual lines, but if you continue to win, they will also cut your limits to a non-functional level. It's not enough that they need to do one or the other ... they've got to do both ... that is what's chickenshit. Bowmans may give dual lines, but at least they still let you place a decent-sized bet if you want to.
oh, by the way, i meant "smaller, less reputable" as pretty much the same description...
i didn't mean smaller in size, i meant smaller as far as reputation and recognition. even though BoDog and MVP are large books, i wouldn't classify them as "core-holding" for most bettors' 'out' portfolios...
not like a pinnacle, wsex, canbet, etc.
there are still plenty of bettors who have never heard of those places (well, BoDog is catching up pretty quick due to some good advertising)...but who in this world hasn't heard of pinnacle? that's what i meant.
that's what i meant by "smaller" but i do stand by the "less reputable" part. i don't consider any of the places to be top-notch reputation...just my opinion.
i didn't mean smaller in size, i meant smaller as far as reputation and recognition. even though BoDog and MVP are large books, i wouldn't classify them as "core-holding" for most bettors' 'out' portfolios...
not like a pinnacle, wsex, canbet, etc.
there are still plenty of bettors who have never heard of those places (well, BoDog is catching up pretty quick due to some good advertising)...but who in this world hasn't heard of pinnacle? that's what i meant.
that's what i meant by "smaller" but i do stand by the "less reputable" part. i don't consider any of the places to be top-notch reputation...just my opinion.
i bet all 4 pro sports....i'm up about 4 units in NHL so far this year (all my plays are flat 1% of my yearly starting bankroll, no progressive/kelly nonsense or anything like that)
hockey has offered a lot of value so far, i've been very surprised. i wasn't expecting to have so many plays this early (i usually hold off until about 8-10 games are played by each team) but the lines have been good so far. i've already had almost 40 plays i think.
bowmans definitely isn't a book for hockey though
pinnacle has always been great though, i'd bet most pro hockey bettors probably will end up having 75-80% of all their plays at pinnacle....the juice is just so low!
hockey has offered a lot of value so far, i've been very surprised. i wasn't expecting to have so many plays this early (i usually hold off until about 8-10 games are played by each team) but the lines have been good so far. i've already had almost 40 plays i think.
bowmans definitely isn't a book for hockey though
pinnacle has always been great though, i'd bet most pro hockey bettors probably will end up having 75-80% of all their plays at pinnacle....the juice is just so low!
