African Americans were 13% of the voters. Obama won because of white folks (and black folks, and asians, and latinos, and old folks and young folks and rich folks and poor folks and mixes of all in every possible combination). 43% of White folks voted for Obama and the large majority of those who didn't live in the South, that bastion of progressive ideas and open minds. If "Blacks have won nothing," have Whites? There are more poor whites in the country than poor blacks, after all.
This is what's funny to me about all of the right wing nutters here and elsewhere: empirical data is never an impediment to belief for them. And there's always this idea that the numbers and data aren't known or can't be known. White Children are the largest section of America's poor. The numbers on tranistion between classes also expose the myth that "if you work hard, you get ahead," in America. But you absolutely HAVE TO believe that or the whole system falls apart. Poeple are too easily duped, but that's a function of having to spend so much time at work that there's little time or energy left for critical reflection. Alas.
This is what's funny to me about all of the right wing nutters here and elsewhere: empirical data is never an impediment to belief for them. And there's always this idea that the numbers and data aren't known or can't be known. White Children are the largest section of America's poor. The numbers on tranistion between classes also expose the myth that "if you work hard, you get ahead," in America. But you absolutely HAVE TO believe that or the whole system falls apart. Poeple are too easily duped, but that's a function of having to spend so much time at work that there's little time or energy left for critical reflection. Alas.
LOL what a crock of shit this is. This is the best system in the world.
Lets see here
I worked hard, the wife worked hard.
I stayed out of jail, so did the wife.
I didn't make babies when a youngster.
LIke I said earlier its kinda an easy list.
I agree with the white people being poor also. They do the samethings that the poor black people do. Lets face itstupid does not know color. Stupid is stupid.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume this is the only system under which you've ever lived. Did you know that class mobility in the US is lower than it is in some Scandinavian countries? In other words, you have a better chance of moving from poor to rich in a nominally socialist country than you do here, with it's "greatest" system. Again, I dare you to look at the data.
your comparing apples to oranges
socialism at a small local level can be efficient and run well
on the scale of the US federal government it sucks donkey balls
especially when you toss in lawyers, and lobbiests and all the policians that are in their pockets and move back and forth through the revolving door between politics and the corporate world....
in the US we have two layers both state and federal
i'm a very very hyper fiscal conservative but i don't have much of a problem with local taxes and spending as you are close to the source and tend to have more say in how that money is spent and such....
on the federal scale its just a black hole and it gets wasted on alot of nonsense that in some cases like education and other things can make the situation even worse than where we started
there's a reason that countries like spain and greece have already had their bonds downgraded from AAA rating with others soon to come.......the EU
big bloated central planning has been a failure throughout the course of human history and tends to lead to less freedom, a lower standard of living, and a great portion of the population living in poverty.....
why anybody thinks america will be immune to this is beyond me
90% of the governement spending (and we need to slash the overall pie big time over the long haul) should be done locally by cities and states not the other way around
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What I'm comparing is the ability of of someone to move up in class. I don't see how that's anything other than apples to apples.
Keeping spending local sounds real nice and all, but all that does is insure that the rich stay rich. If there's any single way to tilt the playing field in the favor of wealth it's to do what you suggest. The point of, for example, the inheritance tax, is to make sure that a landed, monied class can't insure their material advantage in perpetuity. What you suggest does exactly that.
One of the things that confounds me is why so many who insist that "if you work hard you can get ahead," despite the empirical data, are against inheritance taxes and capital gains taxes. All you have to do, presumably, is work a little harder to make up what you "lost.
Of course, according to your ideology you are responsible for all of your short comings, too. If you are not super successful and super duper wealthy, it has to be your own fault. Did you settle for your current income? You mus have, because you could change it if you just worked harder. But you didn't work hard enough because there's someone wealthier than you, that's for sure. And please spare us the "I've got plenty of money and I'm happy where I am" bullshit. No one believes you, least of all you. You lazy bastard.
KILN
Why so angry? Why not go somewhere else if this isnt the best place in your belief? I do believe in what you call bullshit. Where else can people go from poor to rich. The key is not just working hard enough the key is how much risk are you willing to take. If you dont take that into account I think you are kidding yourself. If you arent willing to take risks no matter how hard you work there is only so much money you can make. That is why people say work for yourself. Reality is if you are not willing to take that risk and put in the effort along with making good decisions you will never be extremely wealthy. Most people who make it to be super wealthy have taken great risks with their financial security. This is just what I have learned. Yes I would like to make more money and I make a good living but I also work for someone else because I am not willing to take the risks involved to start something from scratch. I am pretty comfortable and that is no ones fault but my own. My buddy started his business and risked all of his 40k that he saved to start a company and is getting ready to sell it for 4 million and that was after 4 years of hard work. So this is where my perspective is coming from. The guy I worked for go investors 7 years ago and is now going to make about 20 million and his parents were lower middle class. These are just two examples of several that our out there every day. Quit being so dag gum negative and look around there are a lot of people moving up the socio -economic ladder.
Why so angry? Why not go somewhere else if this isnt the best place in your belief? I do believe in what you call bullshit. Where else can people go from poor to rich. The key is not just working hard enough the key is how much risk are you willing to take. If you dont take that into account I think you are kidding yourself. If you arent willing to take risks no matter how hard you work there is only so much money you can make. That is why people say work for yourself. Reality is if you are not willing to take that risk and put in the effort along with making good decisions you will never be extremely wealthy. Most people who make it to be super wealthy have taken great risks with their financial security. This is just what I have learned. Yes I would like to make more money and I make a good living but I also work for someone else because I am not willing to take the risks involved to start something from scratch. I am pretty comfortable and that is no ones fault but my own. My buddy started his business and risked all of his 40k that he saved to start a company and is getting ready to sell it for 4 million and that was after 4 years of hard work. So this is where my perspective is coming from. The guy I worked for go investors 7 years ago and is now going to make about 20 million and his parents were lower middle class. These are just two examples of several that our out there every day. Quit being so dag gum negative and look around there are a lot of people moving up the socio -economic ladder.
if you want to see big centralized bloated government in action move to china
bulk of their population still lives like shit
during the good times a few people moved up in class created inflation for the huge population of have nots while they used their low skilled grunt work population to build up their military and centralize all the important stuff parts of their economy while their environment has been treated like complete shit just giving enough to the have nots to survive and not revolt which also includes necessary things like scaring the population away from having freedom of speech and other things like that....
also i've "settled" where i am cause i'm comfortable, debt free, live a meager lifestyle and materialistic things don't really mean a whole lot to me
but one thing i'm not is a burden to my country
some of my friends have moved on and been "successful" making 80k working 40-50 hours a week, buying nice cars, homes, having kids and such....
just not tiz's cup of tea
i have no problem with what people choose as their idea of success
as long as they aren't a burden to the rest of the country due to them either getting in too much debt that they could handle or because they'd rather get handed a government check rather than work...
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Seriously? Really?
So first of all the point of my post was to point out that the chances of moving from "poor to rich" are greater in parts of Scandinavia then they are in the United States (as it turns out, the chances of moving up in class are roughly equal between the U.S. and France, too).
Do you really not understand why one would remain in a place that "isn't the best place in [one's] belief?" TO MAKE IT BETTER. See, that's the cool thing about democracy--even the lame-ass, castigated, denatured, deracinated variety we have here. Stuff changes everyday. Thank goodness. It's because of change that the anachronistic, archaic, and outdated ideology that has gripped this country for almost all of its existence is finally disapating.
And yeah, that's the problem with the middle class: not willing to take risks. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And reagrding your personal stories, touching and uplifting as they may be, I'll tell you what I tell all the Freshmen in my Intro to Composition lecture: the plural of anecdote is not evidence.)
I'm not angry, I'm right. Bummer for you and yours.
p.s. To Barman--from whom I've come to expect so much more and so much better--I don't say that Scandanavia is "better." I merely point out the fiction of class mobility in the U.S.
why in the hell would i want to get an education and make something better for myself....or flip burgers at mcdonalds
especially now with universities being big bloated socialistic beuracracies paying insane amounts to get a college education....
go into 150k in debt to get a business degree sounds like a great idea!!!!
when i can sit on my ass and get some health care and live in "poverty"
or why would i bother taking the risk and hard work.....to start a business when i have to deal with this permit and that permit, i gotta worry about providing big time health care benefits, i gotta worry about government making new laws that i have to do this and that to comply, i gotta worry about discrimination laws and all the increase in paywork and hassel.....i gotta pay high tax rate
(this is a big big problem i see for our economy going forward all the small and medium size business that will fold and go under due to the current mess....and the fact that the democrats keep putting in so much more crap to give less incentive to even try.....as small and medium sized businesses employ alot of people in this country....)
or why would i bother working for a corporation making 100k when between federal state and local medicare social security (and all the other hidden fees in the economy....gas tax, phone tax, cig tax....you can make a big list) they will take at least 40% of my income and with social security and medicare there's a remote shot i may not see a dime by the time i'm retired the way we are going....
as for tiz.....
i don't know what the poverty level is these days but if i had to guess based on what i SPEND tiz lives in poverty or very near it
and i am very comfortable and content...
especially now with universities being big bloated socialistic beuracracies paying insane amounts to get a college education....
go into 150k in debt to get a business degree sounds like a great idea!!!!
when i can sit on my ass and get some health care and live in "poverty"
or why would i bother taking the risk and hard work.....to start a business when i have to deal with this permit and that permit, i gotta worry about providing big time health care benefits, i gotta worry about government making new laws that i have to do this and that to comply, i gotta worry about discrimination laws and all the increase in paywork and hassel.....i gotta pay high tax rate
(this is a big big problem i see for our economy going forward all the small and medium size business that will fold and go under due to the current mess....and the fact that the democrats keep putting in so much more crap to give less incentive to even try.....as small and medium sized businesses employ alot of people in this country....)
or why would i bother working for a corporation making 100k when between federal state and local medicare social security (and all the other hidden fees in the economy....gas tax, phone tax, cig tax....you can make a big list) they will take at least 40% of my income and with social security and medicare there's a remote shot i may not see a dime by the time i'm retired the way we are going....
as for tiz.....
i don't know what the poverty level is these days but if i had to guess based on what i SPEND tiz lives in poverty or very near it
and i am very comfortable and content...
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I had a friend (definitely middle class) who passed on the chance to 'move up' in a company. The slight bump in salary he was being offered put him in a higher tax bracket that actually lowered his net.
All the risk and less of the reward, now that's incentive brought to you by your local US government :lolBIG:
heh...Nah, I got the root of your own analogy.
I'd counter that the opportunity for upward mobility in class does in fact exist for nearly all Americans. But through a series of persistent and often sadly consistent foolish behavior choices, a lot of these folks degrade their own opportunities. And the deeper they dig themselves, the more they increase the challenge of reversing course.
