Are al Qaeda Fighters Prisoners of War?

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Are al Qaeda Fighters Prisoners of War?
By Michael C. Dorf, Professor of Law at Columbia University School of Law

First, what does it take to qualify as a prisoner of war? Article IV of the Geneva Convention states that members of irregular militias like al Qaeda qualify for prisoner-of-war status if their military organization satisfies four criteria.

The criteria are: "(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; [and] (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

Al Qaeda does not satisfy these conditions. Perhaps Osama bin Laden could be considered "a person responsible for his subordinates," although the cell structure of al Qaeda belies the notion of a chain of command. But in any event, al Qaeda members openly flout the remaining three conditions.

Al Qaeda members deliberately attempt to blend into the civilian population - violating the requirement of having a "fixed distinctive sign" and "carrying arms openly." Moreover, they target civilians, which violates the "laws and customs of war."

Thus, al Qaeda members need not be treated as prisoners of war.

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"This is the business we've chosen." - Hyman Roth
 
Congrats on 4500 posts frank.

4000 political & 500 Bashing.

WTG

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Seriously,

Congrats
 
The General, would love to drink a beer or 2,3,4,5 with you one day...

- - -
"This is the business we've chosen." - Hyman Roth
 
Thanks.

Never know. If it's meant to be, It will be.

Hope you mean that in a good way
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Yes, in every good way.

- - -
"This is the business we've chosen." - Hyman Roth
 
dammit now you clowns have me craving for a beer also !

FF & Gen we should hook up one day at one of those 3rd world countries who harbour those "bookies" and have a beer while visiting some books & hookers also !

Let me know I come in peace
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--------------------------------

25 to life because you couldn't controll your anger
 

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Yeah I know there is an excuse why John Walker Lindh wasnt a POW either, and I am sure there is an excuse why the Iraqis who surrendered arent either.

It always comes down to the same conclusion - It is OK for us, but not for others.
 

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Fat Frank,

The Geneva Convention says that Al Queda will still have to be treated as P.O.W.'s until such time that a competent tribunal declares them to not be P.O.W.'s. So either way you slice it, our Gov't is every bit as guilty of war crimes as Iraq is on this issue.
 
>The Geneva Convention says

DannyMay = Internet poster who believes Clinton won the majority of votes in a presidential election.

Michael C. Dorf = Professor of Law at Columbia University School of Law

Yeah right Danny...
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Danny: I'm glad the U.S. didn't wait for a 'competent tribunal's' decision, due to the nature of the threat. Supposing such a tribunal would be convened under the banner of the UN, we'd be waiting for 12 years to find out what we already know from an impotent organization of clowns that have Iran and Iraq scheduled to chair the UN Disarmament Committeee in a few months and has Libya chairing the Human Rights Commission.

That's laughable.
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Fat Frank,

I didnt say that. It is in the geneva convention. But of course, the geneva convention only matters when it can be used to cry that the other side isnt treating you fairly.
 

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Jazz,

It is funny how you call them an impotent organization of clowns when they don't support your war.

It wasn't two weeks ago you were claiming tyhis war was justified because Saddam had WMD's in violation of UN Resoultion 1441.


So lets see, this war is justified because Saddam does not follow the orders of that " impotent organization of clowns" ?

Or let me guess - they were GOD when they were passing UN resolution 1441, but when they said this war is wrong they became an impotent organization of clowns.

That is kind of like the old "The geneva convention doesnt apply to Al Queda- or John Walker Lindh- Or the Iraqi POW's- But if Iraq doesnt treat our guys fair there will be hell to pay"
 

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LONDON, 27 March 2003 — Suddenly, the government of the United States has discovered the virtues of international law. It may be waging an illegal war against a sovereign state; it may be seeking to destroy every treaty which impedes its attempts to run the world, but when five of its captured soldiers were paraded in front of the Iraqi television cameras on Sunday, Donald Rumsfeld, the US defense secretary, immediately complained that “it is against the Geneva Convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that is humiliating for them”.

He is, of course, quite right. Article 13 of the third convention, concerning the treatment of prisoners, insists that they “must at all times be protected ... against insults and public curiosity”. This may number among the less heinous of the possible infringements of the laws of war, but the conventions, ratified by Iraq in 1956, are non-negotiable. If you break them, you should expect to be prosecuted for war crimes.

This being so, Rumsfeld had better watch his back. For this enthusiastic convert to the cause of legal warfare is, as head of the Defense Department, responsible for a series of crimes sufficient, were he ever to be tried, to put him away for the rest of his natural life.

His prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held,[B[ breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (Article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television.[/B] In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras. They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of Article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions. They were then interned in a penitentiary (against Article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).

They were not “released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities” (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about Al-Qaeda. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No “coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever”. In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as “torture lite”: Sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not “prisoners of war”, but “unlawful combatants”. The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of Article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taleban) or a volunteer corps (Al-Qaeda) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, Article 5 insists that they “shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal”.

But when, earlier this month, lawyers representing 16 of them demanded a court hearing, the US court of appeals ruled that as Guantanamo Bay is not sovereign US territory, the men have no constitutional rights. Many of these prisoners appear to have been working in Afghanistan as teachers, engineers or aid workers. If the US government either tried or released them, its embarrassing lack of evidence would be brought to light.

You would hesitate to describe these prisoners as lucky, unless you knew what had happened to some of the other men captured by the Americans and their allies in Afghanistan. On Nov. 21, 2001, around 8,000 Taleban soldiers and Pashtun civilians surrendered at Konduz to the Northern Alliance commander, Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum. Many of them have never been seen again.

As Jamie Doran’s film Afghan Massacre: Convoy of Death records, some hundreds, possibly thousands, of them were loaded into container lorries at Qala-i-Zeini, near the town of Mazar-i-Sharif, on Nov. 26 and 27. The doors were sealed and the lorries were left to stand in the sun for several days. At length, they departed for Sheberghan prison, 80 miles away. The prisoners, many of whom were dying of thirst and asphyxiation, started banging on the sides of the trucks. Dostum’s men stopped the convoy and machine-gunned the containers. When they arrived at Sheberghan, most of the captives were dead.

The US special forces running the prison watched the bodies being unloaded. They instructed Dostum’s men to “get rid of them before satellite pictures can be taken”. Doran interviewed a Northern Alliance soldier guarding the prison. “I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoner’s neck. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them.” Another soldier alleged: “They took the prisoners outside and beat them up, and then returned them to the prison. But sometimes they were never returned, and they disappeared.”

Many of the survivors were loaded back in the containers with the corpses, then driven to a place in the desert called Dasht-i-Leili. In the presence of up to 40 US special forces, the living and the dead were dumped into ditches.

Anyone who moved was shot. The German newspaper Die Zeit investigated the claims and concluded that: “No one doubted that the Americans had taken part. Even at higher levels there are no doubts on this issue.” The US group Physicians for Human Rights visited the places identified by Doran’s witnesses and found they “all ... contained human remains consistent with their designation as possible grave sites”.

It should not be necessary to point out that hospitality of this kind also contravenes the third Geneva Convention, which prohibits “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture”, as well as extra-judicial execution. Donald Rumsfeld’s department, assisted by a pliant media, has done all it can to suppress Jamie Doran’s film, while Gen. Dostum has begun to assassinate his witnesses.

It is not hard, therefore, to see why the US government fought first to prevent the establishment of the international criminal court, and then to ensure that its own citizens are not subject to its jurisdiction. The five soldiers dragged in front of the cameras on Monday should thank their lucky stars that they are prisoners not of the American forces fighting for civilization, but of the “barbaric and inhuman” Iraqis.




THERE YOU GO FAT FRANK IT IS IN ARTICLE 5 OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION.
 

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Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, Article 5 insists that they “shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal”.
 

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Danny: my problem with the UN is not their resolutions but the absolute hypocrisy and intentional cynicism on the part of a lot of the countries when they refuse to back up their words. 1441 existed only because of the will of the US and her allies - not because the CLOWNS in the UN derived it without US movement.

I've always considered the UN to be a failure, as I've said many times, the horrors in Rwanda are a perfect example - and they KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON IN 1994 AND DID NOTHING TO STOP IT, including the US administration at the time run by Clinton.

And facing an enemy like Al Queda that INCONTREVERTIBLY violates those 3 qualifications and to have simply bypassed your blessed Article 5, in the interests of our national security, pales in comparison to the butality that defines these murdering bastards. To force the US to faithfully follow this article while knowing (and you KNOW IT) that Al Queda does not qualify for protection under that status is just downright ridiculous.

Tell you what - let the UN pass a resolution condemning the US for this - I'm really concerned that those CLOWNS would enforce it.
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Let me see if I understand your position.


It is OK for us to ignore part of the Geneva Convention because those " Murdering Bastards" came into our country and knocked down our buldings and killed our civilians.

How could Iraq have The Gaul to ignore part of the Geneva convention when all we did was go to their country, knock down their buldings, and kill their civilians ?
 

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