Advantage play at craps?

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Craps is a very entertaining gambling game. If you're out for entertainment, and craps provides that for you then great.

Craps, however, has a fixed house edge on every bet on the table.

Some bets are better than others, but they are all bad bets.

The lowest edge is on the pass line or don't pass line. The house edge is about 1.4% on your pass line or don't pass bet. People think that taking full odds lowers the house edge. This is somewhat of a misnomer. Playing odds is an even money bet on the odds bet. Neither the house nor the player has the advantage on this bet. The player is still giving up 1.4% of whatever the original pass line or don't pass bet was.

In other words, if you bet $100 on the pass line with no odds, your expected loss is 1.4% of $100 or $1.40 cents. If you play $500 odds behind your $100 bet, there is no vig on the $500, but the player is still giving up $1.40 on the original $100 pass line bet.

The reason people think that playing odds lowers the house edge is because you now have $600 in action but are only expected to lose the same $1.40 as you would have with the $100 bet so it appears that percentagewise the house edge is lower... in a sense it is, but in another sense it is not.

Other bets on the table (expect Come and Don't Come which are equal to the pass line and don't pass) have worse odds. The next best bets are placing the 6 and 8 ... and they get progressively worse. The hard ways, field bets, any 7, ... those are HORRIBLE bets with house edges of 5% or more.

Craps can not be beaten by any normal betting strategies or riding hot rolls. If you would know a hot roll before it happened then sure you could make money, but there is no way to know a hot roll until after the fact.

If someone rolls 10 7's in a row... what is the probability of another 7 coming up? Some would say it is less likely because you already rolled 10 in a row, so you're "due" for another number. Some would say that a 7 is more likely because obviously the dice are hitting 7 right now... the real answer is 1 in 6. (I am assuming honest dice). No matter what happened the previous 5, 10 or 500 rolls, a 7 has a 1 in 6 chance of hitting on any given roll.

That is why craps can not be beaten because it is subject to the law of independant trials. In other words, each and every roll of the dice is an independant event that is not affected by any previous events.

The odds never change. They are always against you.

There are a few advantage techniques at craps where you can make money or "expected value" however.

Tip hustling

This is probably the most profitable of all craps strategies, but it is normally only valid for women, and at least semi-attractive ones at that. Men can sometimes get a tip or two but it is much easier for women.

The strategy is to find a table where there is some super high roller betting thousands of dollars. Get on the table and bet the minimum and when you get the dice, hope for a lucky roll. If you can get a lucky roll and the rich guy wins $20,000 or something like that, the rich guy might throw you $500 or something.

This is the best possible way to make money at craps but most of us do not qualify because we are men.

Comp Hustling

Craps does have a low house edge. If you want free drinks for a night, you can bet $5 or so on the pass line. As long as you get a couple drinks per hour for free, you'll get more value from the free drinks than you will lose in expected value on your pass line bets.

Some casinos will rate you based on your odds too for rooms, and dinners and stuff. If you bet $100 with $500 odds, you're giving up $1.40 per roll sequence, but the casino might see you as a much bigger customer than you really are if they rate your odds. They'll see you as a $600 bettor, not a $100 bettor. This might get you some comped suites, free dinners at nice restaurants, things like that. The value you get from the comps could outweigh the amount you're losing. It also helps to sit out every other roll or something like that so you are only playing half as many sequences per hour than the casino thinks you are (so you're giving up less). Playing for comps will involve some big swings in your bankroll though.

Dice control

This one is long-disputed. Some people think that hours of practice can lead to being able to have some control of the dice and how they fall. Most people try to control only one die. If you can get one of the two dice to come up with a certain number more often than not, you can have a large advantage.

For people that try to do this, standing at a position near the center of the table usually works best because it minimizes the throwing distance.

I've heard rumors about some people being able to do this, but if there are, there are probably fewer than 5 people in the world that can... I sure wish like crazy I could!

David
 

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DAVE- 100% ACCURATE ARTICLE. Thanks for sharing with the group.
 

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Dave:

Excellent Read..

True, true, true but I love the game.
 

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Enjoyed the read. I have found some places will not comp you on the odds part of it behind the line though. If you play $5 on the line and $50 behind it the $50 does not count toward your hourly rate. I am sure it varies from place to place. The pit boss I asked (can't remember where I was) said since there is no statistical edge for the house that does not count toward comps. The house won't comp you when you are getting "true odds".

Anyway nice read, thanks.
 

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Dave- Nice article but I did disagree with the part where you said all bets are bad ones. When you take odds neither you or the house has an advantage. If you are able to get 10x odds it's almost an even game. If you get 100x odds there's almost no difference.
 

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If you bet $5 and take $500 in odds the expected loss is $.07 on $505 bet. Odds against the player are .0139%. That's a little over a penny on every $100 bet.

[This message was edited by raiders72001 on May 30, 2003 at 06:00 PM.]
 

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Raiders - this is true and it's all how you word it so I didn't argue that point. I agree. Bottom line is no matter how much you put behind the line there will always be an edge towards the house, always. At 1 million times odds behind the line they will always have the edge on what you have on the pass line. It goes down greatly in relation to what you are betting behind the line at true odds and will get AWFUL low but it is always there. That's how they make money. They love to see a clown at a 20x time odds table playing $300 on the line and never taking odds, LOL.

Anyway good point Raiders, I think Dave was just doing his math differently but you are correct.
 

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My former boss was THE MAN credited with introducing 10x odds and above behind the PASS LINE. Actually, this is a much bigger advantage to the house in the long run over a casino that offers only 2x odds. There are many many factors for this. The man that is credited with this is considered the most ELITE casino executive industry leader of his time.
 

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Very good read. There are only two places I know that rate you for full odds. Rio and Alladin in Las Vegas.

Tip hustling is for brokes and losers. If it happens it happens but to go to a table hoping to find a whale is ridiculous.

Comp hustling I love! Frig those casinos.

Dice control is a definite real thing that happens. There are a lot more then 5 guys that can control a die. If you can hold a die up it is a huge advantage and with a lot of spin is one way it can be done. But let's not forget this is illegal. I can spot a good mechanic grip when I see one. (-;
 

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The man in my story was BILL FRIEDMAN........and now you know THE REST OF THE STORY!!
 

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i want to recommend two books

1. beat the craps out of the casinos by frank scoblete
2. john patricks advanced craps

these books are not about "surefire ways to win"

but they do cover basic stategies on how to hedge bets and are full of good tips on the game.

the scoblete book covers a method of playing the "come" that alot of people fail to do that would save them money on a "hot" roll...
 

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I believe what David said about every bet placed is a bad one. Even in raiders example... it is less than 50%... and even if it was exactly 50% that is still a bad wager because there is no advantage. Without an advantage there is no good bet.
 

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Precisely. Play craps once a month for fun and win or lose a couple dimes to make it worth your time.
 

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At 50/50 it's how you look at things. Is it a good bet or a bad bet? Is the glass half full or half empty? I do agree with you guys that it's crazy to think you can make money at craps but you can make the odds awfully close.
 

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RAIDERS- I HATE TO BREAK THIS TO YOU......BUT IT IS ALWAYS HALF EMPTY WHEN PLAYING CRAPS.
 

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LOL
icon_biggrin.gif
 

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Krack:

Paris does, and Bally's might ( but Bally's is a dump).

JC
 

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PARIS AND BALLYS IS ONE IN THE SAME

BUT, your right, the PARIS side is nicer. Nice bar by the sportsbook to get loaded at. Damn, I miss Vegas.
 

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DM,
Interesting article but I don't think it proves your point, that is, you said you can't win at craps. You then proceed to prove that properly played craps, a la Raiders example, has the lowest house advantage of any casino bet. (by the way, I do not accept Strut's pronouncement that Baccarat has a lower house advantage than properly played craps!) Now I will agree, that if you play long enough, for an infinite amount of time, the house advantage will win. But over the short run, you have a better chance of winning money from a casino by playing craps, than by playing any other game of chance.
 

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