Judge notes it was small-stakes play, but it still was illegal
Peering down from the dais in Salina Municipal Court Wednesday, Judge Scott Condray of Concordia told defendants Ronald Vance and Daniel Kieborz that he sympathized with them.
The two faced two charges each of gambling for betting on a dice game and NASCAR races back in March at the Dew Drop Inn, 340 N. 12th.
“It’s unfortunate the law is not fair,” Condray said. “It’s unfortunate that some are caught and others are not.”
And, Judge Condray said, the amount of money involved in the gambling case seemed “fairly minor.”
Investigator Glenn Lippard, an officer with the I-135/I-70 Drug Task Force, said players bet $1 a round on the dice game, called Ship, Captain and Crew, and $5 a chance on the NASCAR races. Officers confiscated about $215 in all.
But despite the small amount of money, the activities were illegal, Condray ruled.
He found both men guilty and ordered each to pay a total of $200 in fines and $60 in court costs.
Jim Sweet and Bob Thompson, attorneys for the two men, said they planned to appeal the convictions to Saline County District Court.
“We’ll ask that a jury consider the evidence,” Sweet said after the trial. “The municipal judges are hired by the city to judge these things. It (the verdict) didn’t surprise me.”
Thompson said he thought he and Sweet put on a good case.
“The conscience of the city has spoken,” Thompson said. “Not of the community, of the city.”
Edward M. Zimmerman and Irenaeus “Joe” Kuhn, who were arrested with Vance and Kieborz, accepted plea agreements earlier and each was ordered to pay $200 in fines and $60 in court costs.
A game of skill
The defense case for Vance and Kieborz centered on the theory that the dice game was not a game of chance, but one of skill. Thompson extensively questioned Mandy Elstun, who worked as a bartender at the Dew Drop Inn, about how the game was played and whether players had to make decisions on which dice to roll.
In the game, players roll five dice. The object is to get either a 6, 5 and 4, or a 5, 4 and 3 — Elstun and Investigator Lippard disagreed over which three numbers were required — and the highest numbers possible on the final two dice. Players get three rolls.
Thompson rattled off several combinations of numbers and asked Elstun whether she would roll any of the dice over again if faced with those numbers.
“Would there be some thought process to decide whether to roll two 3s again?” he asked.
Elstun said she would base her decision partly on “whether you think that 6 (the combination of the two numbers) is going to be enough to win or not.”
Then, he asked what she would do if she got two 1s.
“Nobody’s going to stay with a 2,” she said.
And he asked whether she had ever seen his client, Kieborz, win a game by getting a 6, 5, 4 and two 6s — the best possible roll — on the first roll. That would mean the win was pure chance.
“He could have, or he could not have,” Elstun said.
Basketball bets
Thompson asked Lippard whether he ever had participated in an NCAA basketball tournament pool.
“Yes, I have,” Lippard said.
He asked whether there was skill involved in selecting teams for the bracket, or whether he left the selection up to chance.
“Did you throw a dart?” Thompson asked.
“No,” Lippard said.
“Did you flip a coin?” Thompson asked.
“Sometimes,” Lippard said.
Then, Thompson asked how players of the Ship, Captain and Crew decided which dice to roll again, and whether that was pure chance.
“I can’t characterize what they were thinking,” Lippard said.
During the exchanges, people in the courtroom — many of whom were waiting for their turn at trial — laughed quietly and made comments to one another.
“This is a freakin’ joke,” one man said to the girl sitting beside him.
In her closing argument, city Prosecutor Jennifer Wyatt said that while there might be some decision-making involved with the game, it’s still gambling. She said that, using Thompson’s argument, blackjack, poker and slots could be considered games of skill and not of chance.
“It’s a ridiculous argument,” Wyatt said.
What was ridiculous, Sweet said in his closing argument, was “spending all this time and effort and resources to get these people for something that happens all over town.”
Who complained?
Sweet asked Lippard during his questioning who complained about illegal gambling at the Dew Drop Inn, sparking the investigation, and why the drug task force, which focuses on drug investigations, investigated the complaint.
Lippard said the complaint was made in an anonymous letter to Police Chief Jim Hill, and that it was the first gambling complaint he had investigated in his year on the task force. Lippard said Hill instructed Lt. Joe Garman, former commander of the task force, to investigate.
Lippard said he and investigator Lane Mangels, another task force officer, went to the bar three times. The first time and third time, they saw patrons playing the dice game, but they didn’t participate in the game. The second time they were in the bar, they saw two patrons give Elstun $5 each for participation in a NASCAR pool. Lippard said Mangels gave Elstun $5 to participate in that game.
Asked if he knew how much time was spent on the investigation, Lippard said he doesn’t usually track such things. But he said he and Mangels spent about 41/2 hours over three days in the bar. Additional time after the arrests was made interviewing people, writing reports and processing evidence.
http://www.saljournal.com
Peering down from the dais in Salina Municipal Court Wednesday, Judge Scott Condray of Concordia told defendants Ronald Vance and Daniel Kieborz that he sympathized with them.
The two faced two charges each of gambling for betting on a dice game and NASCAR races back in March at the Dew Drop Inn, 340 N. 12th.
“It’s unfortunate the law is not fair,” Condray said. “It’s unfortunate that some are caught and others are not.”
And, Judge Condray said, the amount of money involved in the gambling case seemed “fairly minor.”
Investigator Glenn Lippard, an officer with the I-135/I-70 Drug Task Force, said players bet $1 a round on the dice game, called Ship, Captain and Crew, and $5 a chance on the NASCAR races. Officers confiscated about $215 in all.
But despite the small amount of money, the activities were illegal, Condray ruled.
He found both men guilty and ordered each to pay a total of $200 in fines and $60 in court costs.
Jim Sweet and Bob Thompson, attorneys for the two men, said they planned to appeal the convictions to Saline County District Court.
“We’ll ask that a jury consider the evidence,” Sweet said after the trial. “The municipal judges are hired by the city to judge these things. It (the verdict) didn’t surprise me.”
Thompson said he thought he and Sweet put on a good case.
“The conscience of the city has spoken,” Thompson said. “Not of the community, of the city.”
Edward M. Zimmerman and Irenaeus “Joe” Kuhn, who were arrested with Vance and Kieborz, accepted plea agreements earlier and each was ordered to pay $200 in fines and $60 in court costs.
A game of skill
The defense case for Vance and Kieborz centered on the theory that the dice game was not a game of chance, but one of skill. Thompson extensively questioned Mandy Elstun, who worked as a bartender at the Dew Drop Inn, about how the game was played and whether players had to make decisions on which dice to roll.
In the game, players roll five dice. The object is to get either a 6, 5 and 4, or a 5, 4 and 3 — Elstun and Investigator Lippard disagreed over which three numbers were required — and the highest numbers possible on the final two dice. Players get three rolls.
Thompson rattled off several combinations of numbers and asked Elstun whether she would roll any of the dice over again if faced with those numbers.
“Would there be some thought process to decide whether to roll two 3s again?” he asked.
Elstun said she would base her decision partly on “whether you think that 6 (the combination of the two numbers) is going to be enough to win or not.”
Then, he asked what she would do if she got two 1s.
“Nobody’s going to stay with a 2,” she said.
And he asked whether she had ever seen his client, Kieborz, win a game by getting a 6, 5, 4 and two 6s — the best possible roll — on the first roll. That would mean the win was pure chance.
“He could have, or he could not have,” Elstun said.
Basketball bets
Thompson asked Lippard whether he ever had participated in an NCAA basketball tournament pool.
“Yes, I have,” Lippard said.
He asked whether there was skill involved in selecting teams for the bracket, or whether he left the selection up to chance.
“Did you throw a dart?” Thompson asked.
“No,” Lippard said.
“Did you flip a coin?” Thompson asked.
“Sometimes,” Lippard said.
Then, Thompson asked how players of the Ship, Captain and Crew decided which dice to roll again, and whether that was pure chance.
“I can’t characterize what they were thinking,” Lippard said.
During the exchanges, people in the courtroom — many of whom were waiting for their turn at trial — laughed quietly and made comments to one another.
“This is a freakin’ joke,” one man said to the girl sitting beside him.
In her closing argument, city Prosecutor Jennifer Wyatt said that while there might be some decision-making involved with the game, it’s still gambling. She said that, using Thompson’s argument, blackjack, poker and slots could be considered games of skill and not of chance.
“It’s a ridiculous argument,” Wyatt said.
What was ridiculous, Sweet said in his closing argument, was “spending all this time and effort and resources to get these people for something that happens all over town.”
Who complained?
Sweet asked Lippard during his questioning who complained about illegal gambling at the Dew Drop Inn, sparking the investigation, and why the drug task force, which focuses on drug investigations, investigated the complaint.
Lippard said the complaint was made in an anonymous letter to Police Chief Jim Hill, and that it was the first gambling complaint he had investigated in his year on the task force. Lippard said Hill instructed Lt. Joe Garman, former commander of the task force, to investigate.
Lippard said he and investigator Lane Mangels, another task force officer, went to the bar three times. The first time and third time, they saw patrons playing the dice game, but they didn’t participate in the game. The second time they were in the bar, they saw two patrons give Elstun $5 each for participation in a NASCAR pool. Lippard said Mangels gave Elstun $5 to participate in that game.
Asked if he knew how much time was spent on the investigation, Lippard said he doesn’t usually track such things. But he said he and Mangels spent about 41/2 hours over three days in the bar. Additional time after the arrests was made interviewing people, writing reports and processing evidence.
http://www.saljournal.com
