Why it's different in Basra

[eek.]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=629 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=3>Why it's different in Basra


</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=416><!-- S BO --><!-- S IBYL --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=416 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom>By Hugh Sykes
BBC, Baghdad and Basra
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After spending time with the American First Cavalry in Baghdad and the British army in Basra, Hugh Sykes gives his views on how their different approaches have influenced the attitudes of local people towards the military.

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Humvees used by the US troops are usually armed

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->I have been in Iraq for a fortnight but I have not really been in Iraq at all.

I have been in occupied Iraq, in the back of a US Army Humvee with men armed with pistols, rifles, machine guns and shot guns. They are good for "bad guys who get too close".

Top Cover for the Humvee stands with his head and shoulders out of the roof, and is mostly a traffic cop as Humvee Man forces his way through the Baghdad traffic, sounding his horn and shouting at other drivers at roundabouts and intersections. "Hey! Get out of the Way! You! Stop!"

Iraqi drivers stop, and swerve, and pull over to the side, and the Humvee rushes on.

This is all justified, they say, because of the acute danger of VBIEDs - Vehicle-Born Improvised Explosive Devices. That is, car bombs.

But I believe this is a vicious circle of their own making, that much of the hatred of the Americans that is now violently expressed was provoked by their ignorant disrespect of decent people.

Shifting attitudes

The first time I was in a crowd of Iraqis, they were chanting a rather peaceful demand: "Give us security, give us jobs."

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<!-- S ILIN -->Iraq security picture
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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IBOX -->US marines loomed over the mostly middle-aged demonstrators with pistols and rifles pointing straight at their increasingly resentful faces.

I witnessed this deadly shift take place.

Over a very few days, the guarded welcome that greeted the "liberation" turned sour as the invaders blundered in, protected only themselves and a few key locations like the oil ministry, and stood to one side as looters had the time of their lives.

Many of us reported at the time that there seemed to be no plan for the peace, that the occupying forces appeared to be out of control.

Retired American General Jay Garner, the first civilian administrator in post-war Iraq, says this was true.

He told the New York Times this month that the Bush administration did not "have their heads in the post-war game".

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The fall of Saddam's statue marked the end of his regime

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->An intelligence officer with the US marines admitted to the same paper: "We did not have the force levels to keep the insurgency down."

And yet, amazingly, exactly a week after the fall of Saddam Hussein's statue in Firdus Square, in the middle of this palpable anarchy, US Army commanders in Baghdad were receiving instructions from Washington to prepare to withdraw troops.

What they needed was more troops.

There were not even enough to seal the borders to stop the Zarqawis and al-Qaeda from coming in.

An Iraqi engineer told me this week: "The Americans have made this land truly fertile for terrorism."

With images of severed heads never far from their minds, Western contractors and journalists are now terrified of kidnapping and live in heavily protected camps and compounds, and travel about in armoured vehicles.

Outside the fortifications

Through the metal grill and the bullet-proof glass of the Humvee, I can see Iraq somewhere out there.

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Jay Garner has admitted that the coalition did make mistakes

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->Blurred snapshots as we speed past women walking in the dust in their black chadors.

A man standing in the shade of a tree drinking a can of lemonade. Workmen sweeping the street.

A busy fruit and vegetable market.

Children with satchels chatting happily on their way to school.

Men digging a trench for a new water main, sewage lying in pools along the road.

Traders selling fridges and TVs from the pavement, and incessant traffic with many new cars amongst the ubiquitous battered old Toyotas.

Also, so many satellite TV dishes on so many roofs that some of the old apartment blocks look like MI6 or CIA electronic listening stations.

Softly, softly

Down with the British in Basra it's all a bit different.

I am still incarcerated - but in an armoured Land Rover.

And we stop here and there, and get out, and talk to people.

Out on patrol the British soldiers sling their helmets from their belts and wear soft hats and buy cans of Coke from street stalls. Softly, softly.

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British troops have adopted a "softly, softly" approach in Basra

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->Since the Moqtada al-Sadr uprising in August was suppressed, Basra has been pretty quiet.

Brigadier Andrew Kennet believes that "softly, softly" pays off.

He told me "I did not raze Basra to the ground, but I could have done."

And he says he received a delegation of local people thanking him for targeting the insurgents and not punishing the whole population.

An interpreter at a British base imagines the vehicles the British and the Americans use as a metaphor for the different approaches.

"The Humvee - sinister, aggressive," he said. "The Land Rover - friendly, comfortable and wise."

But it is the troops inside them that count.

And it was inside a Humvee that I met Mike.

A kind and thoughtful man who does not shout at Iraqis.

And in the dark in the Humvee after a long day in Baghdad, Mike handed me a torch and a small dusty book.

His family photo album. Trying to hold the beam steady in the back of the bouncing armoured car, I looked at pictures of his wife and of their baby son Alexander - born this year, on 11 September.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3944741.stm

 

[GAMEFACE]

I'm sure Mr. Skyes knows the answer to his own question, but I'll play: Sunni triangle.

I wonder if Mr. Skyes is suggesting America turns over the heavy lifting to the Brits?

 

[RobFunk]

Retired American General Jay Garner, the first civilian administrator in post-war Iraq, says this was true.

He told the New York Times this month that the Bush administration did not "have their heads in the post-war game".

LOL . .thats an understatement kind of. . .sort of. .. 'well maybe!'

 

[GAMEFACE]

After Bush wins Nov 2nd, I look for the situation to improve in the these hot spots. Unfortunely the media is full of jackels and We are unable to take of business until after the election.

 

[VOLTITAN]

Even though this article is a year + old, it primarily explains "Why it's different in Basra."

British, Shiites Fight Saddam Loyalists in Basra

Wednesday, March 26, 2003



NEAR BASRA, Iraq — British forces battled more than 1,000 die-hard Iraqi loyalists for control of Basra on Wednesday, coming to the defense of inhabitants who rose up against Saddam Hussein in the streets of the country's second-largest city.

Inhabitants of the mostly Shiite Muslim city Tuesday started attacking members of Saddam's Baath Party and other Iraqi fighters, who responded by firing mortars at their own people, the British military said. The British, in turn, shelled the mortar positions and bombed Baath headquarters.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking in Parliament Wednesday, promised backing for the insurgents.

"Truthfully, the reports are confused, but we believe there was some limited form of uprising," Blair told the House of Commons. "It is important that we give support to those people in Iraq who are rising up to overthrow Saddam and his deeply repressive regime."

The uprising came as the British tried to gain control of Basra and relieve the city's trapped civilian population of 1.3 million, which was fast running out of food and was in danger of outbreaks of cholera and diarrhea from contaminated water.

Coalition forces have made no secret of their hopes to spur such uprisings in the strategic southern city.

"We are assessing the situation very carefully to see how we can capitalize on it and how we can assist," said British spokesman Group Capt. Al Lockwood.

During the battle for control of Basra, the Iraqis were firing artillery from the center of the city at British troops, said British spokesman Col. Chris Vernon, while the British confined their artillery to the city's outskirts, trying to identify clear military targets, especially tanks, and avoid civilian casualties.

"The bunch of desperados who've lived above the law rule the roost in this dictatorship, this regime that Saddam Hussein has been running," said Lt. Col. Ronnie McCourt, spokesman for British forces in the Persian Gulf. "They're obviously resorting to desperate measures and trying to intimidate the population, and we are making certain that we neutralize them as quickly as possible."

U.S. warplanes also dropped satellite-guided bombs on central Basra, targeting military sites hidden in civilian buildings, according to British accounts.

Gunner Neil Hughes of the Royal Horse Artillery said the Iraqis were using civilians as shields. "There's some tanks refueling -- five or six of them -- but we couldn't engage them because they were right next to a built-up area, a hospital," he said.

Britain's 7th Armored Brigade -- the famed Desert Rats -- was said to be awaiting orders to enter the heart of the city later Wednesday.

For days, coalition forces had hoped to avoid entering Basra for fear of getting bogged down in urban warfare. But tenacious resistance in the city -- there are an estimated 1,000 militia fighters, plus an unknown number of regular troops -- and fears for the trapped civilians led them to change their strategy.

During the 1991 Gulf War, Basra's Shiites rose up against Saddam's Sunni Muslim regime in Baghdad. Government forces crushed the rebellion, slaughtering thousands across the south.

On Tuesday night, thousands of Basra residents rampaged through the streets and set dozens of buildings ablaze, according to British reporters attached to military units.

"It appeared some of the population rose up and started attacking elements that are defending the city. These elements more and more as we're investigating them appear to be mostly criminal elements and ruling Baath party members," Lockwood said. "The attack from the local population obviously gave them cause for concern to the extent that they started mortaring them."

The exiled Iraqi National Congress opposition party called it a large uprising and said it involved fierce hand-to-hand combat and bayonets.

On Wednesday, McCourt said British forces were trying to prevent "these thugs and hoodlums" from trying to slip out of the city.

In a telephone interview with Al-Jazeera television, Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed al-Sahhaf denied there was an uprising in Basra.

"The situation is stable," he said. "Resistance is continuing and we are teaching them more lessons."

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said he was aware that Fedayeen guerrillas loyal to Saddam were infiltrating the city. But he said he was reluctant to encourage any uprisings.

"I guess those of us my age remember uprisings in Eastern Europe back in the 1950s when they rose up and they were slaughtered," he said. "We know there are people in those cities ready to shoot them if they try to rise up."

But he added: "Anyone who's engaged in an uprising has a whole lot of courage, and I sure hope they're successful."

The number of casualties in Basra was not immediately known. But the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera quoted Iraqi medics on Saturday as saying 50 people were killed in U.S. bombings there.

International relief agencies in phone contact with aid workers in the city expressed deep concern about the fate of trapped civilians.

"It's very alarming, very critical," said Veronique Taveau of the U.N. humanitarian office for Iraq.

The city's electricity was knocked out Friday during U.S.-British bombing. That in turn shut down Basra's water pumping and treatment plants. The U.N. Children's Fund estimated up to 100,000 Basra children under 5 were at immediate risk of severe disease from the unsafe water.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface:

Things could change rapidly OVERNITE ...

The Temple Mount could collapse and that will lead to a Regional War ... Israel will make its move in the upcoming days against Iran ...

The USA does not get it ... PEACE is not possible in this part of the World .. this is an Islamic driven culture ... Islam is NOT THE RELIGION OF PEACE as Bush will have ya believe ..

The Temple Mount is the most disputed piece of land in the entire world ... NOTHING EVEN CLOSE and WHEN it collapses all hell will break loose in that part of the world

 

[GAMEFACE]

Doc,

I know Islam is not the religion of peace. They want to dominate the world, Europe will fall in my life.

You believe Israel will bomb Irans nuke plant in how many days. I believe eventually Israel will, I don't believe they will very soon as in few weeks.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface:

This manuever by Israel is gonna be tricky ... their are like 6 plants I've read they have targeted .. most of em buried underground and in settings that will guarantee a lot of civilians being hurt or killed ....

Sharon has a tricky situation on his hand .. does he wait till the election? Russia is deeply involved with this project and this may set in place the "Gog / Magog" scenario since Russia has a 40 billion dollar "hook" that involves a defense pact with Iran they signed ...

Israel has no choice ... all guesses from what I've read indicate by the end of this year is when Sharon makes his move ...

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface:

Some good info .... go to www.globalsecurity.org and
click on the "Target Iran" link for some good stuff on
this sites in Iran

 

[eek.]

Some stuff on the temple mount etc

http://www.bibleplaces.com/templemountbulge.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2219337.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2771637.stm

 

[docmercer--banned]

EEK:

I just finished a fabulous book by Randall Price called

"The Battle for Last Days Temple ..."

Again, WHEN this collapses .. all bets are off what happens in the Middle East ... heck, they went nuts when Sharon visited in Sept, 2000 to inspect for damage .. imagine WHEN it collapses?

 

[GAMEFACE]

Doc,

Give me the readers digest version on what you think occurs if it collapses.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface:

You are looking at a lot of Muslim deaths if it collapses during Ramadan ... the average American is totally clueless how this is the #1 most disputed piece of property in the entire world ...

I would anticipate the violence would escalate immensely and Hamas has 10,000 rockets poised in S Lebanon that Assad controls and many are loaded with VX gas that can hit deep into Israel ...

Until you read into depth on this situation one does not realize how this powerkeg could errupt if it collapses - which Israel has warned most likely will - during Ramadan and takes out Muslims ...

It can get Nasty very quickly and I'm afraid our boys might caught in the middle of some real nasty violence as this simple piece of disputed territory goes back to the times of Muhammad ... and is at the center of the hatred between the Jews and the Muslims

 

[GAMEFACE]

I've been saying radical Islam is Hitler in head scarfs and some fools on here laugh. We are in the early stages of WW3 and some are only concerned with springer, welfare, gay marriage, late term abortion, drinking bud, smoking bud and a 10% bonus, amazing.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface: Islam is far from the "Religion of Peace" as some folks say ... Teaches God not did have a son .. Christ was just a prophet .. Christ said in the crib to Mary's relative: "Allah is great .." It teaches to "kill the Infidels .." teaches Christ did not rise from the dead .... It is basically the Religious system the False Prophet of the Anti Christ will preach in the upcoming One World Govt ....

If the avg American got to see what was inside the Koran they would not be so comfortable with the growing acceptance of that religion in this country and the number of Mosques inside the USA ....

We are at war ... and its only going to get worse in the upcoming days .. you are watching the EU rise to power under Solana's guidance and is due to sign the "Treaty of Rome" very shortly ... the EU is harping about a Peace Treaty in the Middle East ...

The USA is nowhere to be found in upcoming Final Day events ... the pieces are now in place and the collapse of the Temple Mount will parlay the Rebuilding of the Temple for the 3rd Time as prophesied ...

The next 12-15 months ahead is gonna be very interesting in the history of mankind

 

[GAMEFACE]

Wow! You will not be welcomed around here by the radical left. I agree this is not going to be pretty. The Hitlers in a head scarfs mean business.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Gameface:

Not looking for a fight with any of em ... some read Penthouse and some read the Sporting News .. others read things that pertain to world events and upcoming events

The average American is CLUELESS when it comes to topics such as Islam ... what it preaches and what it stands for
Hell, I had people that told me I was nuts when I mentioned in September 2001 that finding Bin Laden would be a challenge since he lives in Caves

 

[GAMEFACE]

Doc,

I agree, most Americans are clueless and most others are clueless also. It doesn't matter some of these fools do not want to hear the truth. I'd like to talk to you some time.