Thomas Paine on Government and War

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Some insightful comments from an early patriot, worth considering for all of you left-wing softies, right-wing nut jobs, and appeasing middle-of-the-roaders.

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From Common Sense:

"Monarchical governments, it is true, are never long at rest: the crown itself is a temptation to enterprising ruffians at home; and that degree of pride and insolence ever attendant on regal authority, swells into a rupture with foreign powers in instances where a republican government . . . would negotiate the mistake."

" ... in absolute governments the king is law, [but] in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."

"As parents, we can have no joy, knowing that this government is not sufficiently lasting to insure any thing which we may bequeath to posterity. And by a plain method of argument, as we are running the next generation into debt, we ought to do the work of it, otherwise we use them meanly and pitifully."

From Rights of Man, Part One:

"To reason with governments, as they have existed for ages, is to argue with brutes. It is only from the nations [people] themselves that reforms can be expected."

"War is . . . the art of conquering at home; the object of it is an increase of revenue; and as revenue cannot be increased without taxes, a pretense must be made for expenditure. In reviewing the history of the English Government, its wars and its taxes, a bystander, not blinded by prejudice nor warped by interest, would declare that taxes were not raised to carry on wars, but that wars were raised to carry on taxes."

"Why are not Republics plunged into war, but because the nature of their Government does not admit of an interest distinct from that of the Nation? Even Holland, though an ill-constructed Republic, and with a commerce extending over the world, existed nearly a century without war . . ."

From Rights of Man, Part Two:

"For upwards of two years from the commencement of the American War, and to a longer period in several of the American States, there were no established forms of government. The old governments had been abolished, and the country was too much occupied in defense to employ its attention in establishing new governments; yet during this interval order and harmony were preserved as inviolate as in any country in Europe . . . The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act: a general association takes place, and common interest produces common security."

"But how often is the natural propensity to society disturbed or destroyed by the operations of government! When the latter, instead of being ingrafted on the principles of the former, assumes to exist for itself, and acts by partialities of favor and oppression, it becomes the cause of the mischiefs it ought to prevent.

"Can we possibly suppose that if governments had originated in a right principle, and had not an interest in pursuing a wrong one, the world could have been in the wretched and quarrelsome condition we have seen it? What inducement has the farmer, while following the plough, to lay aside his peaceful pursuit, and go to war with the farmer of another country? or what inducement has the manufacturer? What is dominion to them, or to any class of men in a nation? Does it add an acre to any man's estate, or raise its value? Are not conquest and defeat each of the same price, and taxes the never-failing consequence? Though this reasoning may be good to a nation, it is not so to a government. War is the [beacon] of governments, and nations the dupes of the game.

"[War] serves to keep up deceitful expectations which prevent people from looking into the defects and abuses of government."

From a letter to George Washington, 30 July 1796:

"A thousand years hence (for I must indulge a few thoughts), perhaps in less, America may be what Europe now is. The innocence of her character, that won the hearts of all nations in her favor, may sound like a romance and her inimitable virtue as if it had never been. The ruin of that liberty which thousands bled for or struggled to obtain may just furnish materials for a village tale or extort a sigh from rustic sensibility, whilst the fashionable of that day, enveloped in dissipation, shall deride the principle and deny the fact.

"When we contemplate the fall of empires and the extinction of the nations of the Ancient World, we see but little to excite our regret than the mouldering ruins of pompous palaces, magnificent museums, lofty pyramids and walls and towers of the most costly workmanship; but when the empire of America shall fall, the subject for contemplative sorrow will be infinitely greater than crumbling brass and marble can inspire. It will not then be said, here stood a temple of vast antiquity; here rose a babel of invisible height; or there a palace of sumptuous extravagance; but here, Ah, painful thought! the noblest work of human wisdom, the grandest scene of human glory, the fair cause of Freedom rose and fell."

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Phaedrus
 

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Good quotes. I doubt Paine would have been a peacenik during WWI and WWII. In his day, wars were often imperialistic, to add lands, and I'll point out Paine was in favor of the Revolutionary War, so not all wars to him were unjust or unwarranted.

Phaedrus, what meaning did you take that led you to make your first statement?
 

Where Taconite Is Just A Low Grade Ore
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Agree. See my post of 3/26 re. Bush`s obfuscation as to the war and our economy. This is a blatant attempt to make drastic cuts in social programs while cutting taxes for the wealthy and using the Iragi situation as a smoke screen. AND IT`S WORKING!!! Someone said in this forum that "governments sole responsibility was to protect American citizens". Basicly a true statement, but with many ramifications. Not the least of which is a responsibility to protect the least of us. Namely children, aged, underprivilaged etc. This is how a great society will be judged. Not how many "golden parachutes" crooked CEOs are given, or how much accumulated wealth the upper 1 or 2% can acquire. This administration is on a path to do more harm to the MAJORITY of the country than 10,000 BJ`s could ever have. It`s time for us to pull our collective heads out of our asses and recognize what this disasterous ideology will do now and for the future. Forget right or left, use common sense. FF, O&U, etc. give me one good reason to cut taxes at this time and while you`re at it cut VA benefits, aid to schools and so on. Don`t give me this "it will stimulate investments" BS that doesn`t work and never has! No the ONLY justification is for Bush to appease and placate his "fat cat" cronies. Actually I see as much of Cheney behind this as anyone.

I love my country but fear my government.
 

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silver: this is just a comment, I'm not enjoining the battle here - we keep being told that tax cuts are never a good idea, whether in times like this or flush times like in the roaring nineties (need more money for more programs!) - it is a simple fact that it is very rare for the Democrats to EVER favor and spontaneously propose a meaningful tax cut without it being in knee-jerk response to a Republican initiative. Clinton would not do it during his glory years when all that money was flooding the coffers - why? I'll submit that while sometimes I think the Republicans go overboard, the Democrats simply want to enlarge the scope of the government and expand it's mission to almost socialism. Both sides have their faults, but on the whole I just want the government to get the hell out of my way, a notable exception being defense.

That's a statement about what I think, not trying to further an argument here
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I'm still here Mo-fo's
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Silver is right on point!
All of you right-wingers who are so quick and eager to demean with your condescending attacks on anyone who opposes your reckless, venemous leadership should do the following:
Pick up copies of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Federalist Papers.
The first two are what this country should be defending/upholding with all our might using the Papers as a guide in this end. I would also recommend that you open your closed minds since this country embodies compromise of opposing views and interests.

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Jazz, I often find myself in the unenviable position of being opposed to everyone, sort of an antimatter appeaser (The latter's "You've all got some good points here" vs. my "You're all wrong go f*ck yourselves.")

On this forum, with little exception, everyone seems to fall into one of the three categories I most deride. I myself am very much anti-war, yet so far from the 'left' that I need binoculars to see their point; on the other hand, I am anti-welfare in any form, yet so far from the 'right' ditto.

I hate the Republican Party because I think it's a predominantly the embodiment of the Leviathan State, as coined by Mises (possibly Rothbard.) I hate the Democratic party because I think that they are predmoninantly a bunch of closet Socialists, often with noble goals but a total inability to just admit that not all ideas which are noble in cause are possible in reality. I hate Libertarians because they talk too much and act too little, and most just seem to be in it for a free ride. I hate Federalists because they embody all of the worst points of the Republican and Democratic parties. Independents such as Perot have no future. The Green Party and Reform Party platforms disagree with me signfiicantly. Anarchy is not a realistic option. The Capitalist Party is a mass of foolish contradictions.

What I see in political discussions, is everbody trying to lord over everybody else, with no consideration of morality or consequence, and in places like this forum the 'discussion' seldom makes it past one post before it degenerates into childishness. I thought simply that the well-reasoned words of Paine might ring well to both sides of the discussions about the situation in Iraq.

While Paine was of course a staunch supporter of the American Revolution, I sincerely doubt that he would have seen American involvement in either of the World Wars in a favourable light. Paine was a detractor of the European states and would have seen both of the crises which gave birth to those wars for what they were -- the logical result of the choices made.


Thanks for responding.


Phaedrus
 

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I suppose I should assume the natural role of Socrates to your Phaedrus but my delusions of grandeur are not so intense.
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Very interesting response - thank you for the - may I then ask where that leaves you, is it as a totally free-thinker who cannot be accurately attributed to any classical political point of view? You've expressed much hate for other viewpoints inasmuch as they can be gleaned from the groups you mentioned, but little to shed light on what you actually believe except with respect to Iraq - I'm sure negativity doesn't define you.

Apologies in advance, I've got to run now, but thank you for responding in depth above.
 

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Well, this is hardly the place for me to start archiving my manifesto.
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'Hate' is probably too strong a term, although I of course was the one to bring it up. There are certainly aspects of many political philosophies and groups which stir my inner Che Guevarre but outright hatred of someone simply because they count themselves as members of a given political/philosophical group? Nah.

Too much ground to cover here. I'll just lay it out post by post as I join th fray form time to time. Feel free to ask a specific question about my view of a specific issue, if you like, Socrates.
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Phaedrus
 

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