The New York F'ing Rangers

Search

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
First, a disclaimer:
I have nothing personal against the New York Rangers. I am a Toronto Maple Leafs fan, so I hate all other teams equally - except for the Canucks; they REALLY suck - being a Leaf fan and living in Victoria will do that to you.
When I first started crunching numbers a few weeks ago this post was actually going to be about the Habs, Panthers and Rangers, since all were running high PDO numbers that were due for a correction. Since then, however, Montreal and Florida have gone in one direction, and the Rangers in the other. Yes, Price got injured and the result was a drop in Montreal's save percentage, but that's not the whole story, which I'll get to in a sec.

A few other points:

Most of the stats that I use are from war-on-ice.com. I highly recommend it. Don't use nhl.com for anything beyond wins and losses unless you want incorrect or useless stats.

All of the stats that I quote are based on even-strength play, and have been score-adjusted, as I feel it gives the most accurate representation, and rebuts the usual: "well, they sit back when they have a lead" argument fairly substantially.

PDO = shooting % + save percentage
CF% = Corsi For % (Corsi For / Corsi Against)
Corsi = shots on net + shots blocked + shots missed
SCF% = Scoring Chances For % (SC For / SC Against)


This is probably going to be long, so buckle up...

The season is roughly 1/4 done - with a few exceptions, teams have played 20/21 games, and we are likely all aware of the insane stats about teams in or out of playoff positions by American Thanksgiving. Vegas Vic had a good post about this a few days ago here: http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=1036838&p=11340286&highlight=#post11340286

The point is that we start to have a pretty good idea of what teams good, and which teams aren't, and that wasn't necessarily as clear a few weeks ago when I started thinking about posting something. At that point, teams had only played 11-13 games, so it was pretty early days.

As of Nov 2, 2015, this is what some of the numbers looked like on the Habs, Panthers and Rangers:

All numbers at 5v5 and Score-Adjusted
As of November 2, 2015
GPPDONHL RankOsh%Osv%CF%NHL RankSCF%PointsNHL Rank
Rangers1110519.295.849.31750.3165
Panthers11104.228.495.848.72249.51217
Habs13103.639.494.252.5748.8221

For that point in the season the PDO numbers are a bit high, but not crazily so. Goalies go on great runs, and shooters have streaks where everything seems to go in. Also, the PDO numbers are mostly high because of the save percentages, and it shouldn't be a shock to see Lundqvist, Luongo and Price having great save percentages at even strength. The team shooting percentages are a little high (long-term averages are around 8%), so might come down, but might not (2 teams in the last 5 years have finished above 10% on the season (82 games) - TB in 2011-2012, and Anaheim in 2013-2014). In the same time period though, no team has finished with a save percentage above 94.0, so those numbers were always going to come down.

Since Nov 2, this is what the numbers look like for the same 3 teams:

GPPDONHL RankOsh%Osv%CF%NHL RankSCF%PointsNHL Rank
Rangers10109.8113.596.444.92840.718
Panthers1098246.591.645.92642.38
Habs997.428691.454.5451.912


Notice anything interesting? You should expect some correcting of each team's PDO numbers, but to see the Rangers' set go WAY UP is pretty incredible. And this despite a pretty dramatic drop in possession (28th during the period) and scoring chances (dead last). Florida and Montreal saw both PDO metrics correct significantly, and while Florida was duly punished by getting only 8 points in their last 10 games, Montreal managed 12 in 9 thanks to their stellar possession and scoring chance generation. Montreal's save percentage struggled due to the loss of Price, but their shooting percentage tanked as well. What happened? Did they forget how to shoot accurately? Of course not - the law of averages just caught up with them.

This is what the numbers look like for each team today:

GPPDONHL RankOsh%Osv%CF%NHL RankSCF%PointsNHL Rank
Rangers21107.111196.147.22745.9341
Panthers21101.257.593.647.326462021
Habs22101.168.193.153.3650.1343

Again, does anything stand out? The Rangers, despite having a bottom-5 CF% and the WORST scoring-chances differential in the league are first overall, while the Panthers, with almost identical stats, are out of the playoffs. I have to tell you that when I started crunching these numbers, I had no idea that I would end up with that - 2 teams will very similar analytics, but massively different perceptions, goal differential and points. It doesn't mean that the Rangers and Panthers are the same in terms of ability, as it's still early in the season, but it's pretty suggestive should the numbers continue this way.

Why do I say that? Well, history tells us that, barring a coaching change or massive personnel turnover, it's very hard to make big changes to your possession and scoring chance metrics over the course of a season. I should mention now, that the notion that some teams (always seems to be the ones with shitty underlying metrics - see Roy, Patrick) take better quality shots, so can still win long-term despite bad Corsi, is utter bullshit. It's for that argument that I included the scoring-chance numbers as well. Yes, I'm aware that certain buildings and teams compile them differently, but those differences all come out in the wash/over time. IF the quality-shot argument held up long-term, then you'd see teams with poor Corsi and good scoring chance differential - but you don't. I'll show you in a minute.

Lots of anti-corsi crusaders love to trumpet the old LA Kings argument to disprove Corsi and its utility. "How could Corsi matter if the team with the best Corsi doesn't even make the playoffs?!" Variance, my friends, variance. And I might counter with: 2012-13 Toronto, or 2013-14 Colorado - 2 teams that did really well for a season despite horrendous analytics, but then crash and burned the next year as reality set in.

Take the following table as evidence:

Overall Record
Since 2010-11CF%RankSCF%RankPDO
LA55.4153.7299.6
CHI54.3253.5399.9
BOS53.4352.85101.2
DET53.34534100.3
STL53.1552.37100

Those are the top 5 teams in the last 5+ years in terms of 5v5, SA Corsi. Next to that is their league rank in scoring chances %. Pretty close correlation, don't you think? Lastly, check the PDO over that time. Don't you think that a team with "better shooters" or a "better goalie" like those teams would be much better than the league average in terms of shooting percentage + save percentage? (Boston has Tuukka to thank for their "outlier PDO at 101.2). Let me remind you now that the Rangers through 21 games are currently at 107.1, and you tell me that it's sustainable. Also, it's worth mentioning that the last 5 Stanley Cups have all been won by the teams above.

Now the flip-side:

Overall Record
Since 2010-11CF%RankSCF%RankPDO
BUF44.43044.53099.9
EDM45.62945.52999.2
TOR45.82846.228100.6
COL46.62747.627100.3
CGY472647.82699.6

This is pretty self-explanatory. And CF% and SCF% ranking for this group correlate perfectly. Which group would you rather be in?
This is also a good chance to remind you that the Rangers' CF% through 21 games is 47.2. and their SCF% is 45.9. Still think they're awesome?


By now you still might be thinking: "The Rangers are so fast and dangerous though; nobody can contain them they're so good see how many points they have and look at their goal differential dumbass! Lundqvist can absolutely keep this up!" If you are, there's not much more I can say, but I'll try once more.

The Rangers are 100% guaranteed to regress. How much nobody knows, but if they don't, it would be so many magnitudes of probability beyond what we've seen that heads will explode. This is what I mean:

This is what this year's #1 and #2 teams in terms of PDO look like:

DateTeamPDORankOsh%Osv%CF%RankSC%RankSOSWin %GP
After Game 21NYR107.1111.096.147.22745.93029121
After Game 21OTT103.029.293.846.12948.42725721

SOS is Strength of Schedule per Sagarin. According to that, the Rangers are getting steamrolled analytically every night despite the 2nd-easiest schedule so far.

The Rangers are at 107.2. the NEXT closest team is Ottawa at 103.0 (reminder: the average is 100.0)

Last year this is what the leaders looked like after the same 21 games:

2014-2015 SeasonTeamPDORankOsh%Osv%CF%RankSC%RankWin %GPRecord
After Game 21NSH103.019.094.154.2458.5152114-5-2
After Game 21CGY103.0210.692.443.62842.629112112-7-2
After Game 21NYR101.559.592.048.92149.11819219-8-4

I included the Rangers for context. Last year they were above average PDO-wise, but not off the charts like this year.

This is how they each finished the year:

TeamPDORankOsh%Osv%CF%RankSC%RankSOSWin %GPRecord
End SeasonNSH101.158.292.953.18543368247-25-10
End SeasonCGY101.248.992.344.32844.72722168245-30-7
End SeasonNYR101.718.992.850.61850.6191618253-22-7

Calgary was a good example of a team that was hugely sub-par, but got lucky as hell. How's that going for them so far this year? The traditionalists keep trying to figure out what's wrong with Calgary this year. Well I'm here to tell you: THEY'RE A SHITTY TEAM. And they were a shitty team last year too, but got lucky when it mattered. As I alluded to before - luck can cover up a lot of deficiencies, but eventually the law of averages takes over.
Note also in comparing the start of the season to the end, is that with the Rangers, their CF% and SCF% improved in the last 3/4 of the season, but not by THAT much. Which makes their current run even more worrying.

I've got charts like this for every season going back to 2010-11, and can share them with any of you, but I can tell you right now that they all say the same thing.

2 takeaways though - the HIGHEST PDO (apart from the current Rangers) that we've seen in the last decade or so after 21 games is from the Rangers in 2011-12, and that was at 103.8. They finished the season at 101.0, which means they played the last 75% of games at a PDO of about 100.
And in the last 7 years only 2 teams have finished an 82 game season with a PDO higher than 102.5, and only just. If the Rangers finish at 102.5, that means they will play the rest of the schedule with a PDO of a little under 101.


In conclusion: The Rangers have been historically lucky so far, and it won't last. Even if they start to play better than they have, history is not their friend. That doesn't mean they'll miss the playoffs - even I'm not suggesting that, what with the cushion they now have. But even if they were playing really well I'd say they're due for a big hit - but winter is coming for them, and I'll be cashing in when it does.


As always, arguments are welcome on both sides, and if you have no fucking idea what I'm talking about at all, let me know and I'll steer you to some much smarter dudes who know a ton more than me about this stuff.
 

Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
53,682
Tokens
Feddz.......appreciate the time you put into this.........BOL tonight .......you and your family have a great thanksgiving............indy
 

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
917
Tokens
Good info and yes I am the one that said how in the world can the top Corsi team not make the playoffs. And I still say that.

Again, good info and keep it coming !!!!!
 

I don't know enough to know I don't know
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
12,487
Tokens
Even as a complete novice to all this, something tells me the Ranger’s PDO regressed to the mean in a big way tonight.?

Terrific thread Feddz. My only regret is I didn’t read it early enough to take a little on the Canadians tonight.

You really need to forward this to war-on-ice. Well written, thought out, and explained so simply even I can understand.


How do you factor in special teams to these stats Feddz? I always used the 100 number as my barometer, (Adding the PK% + PP%). Anything less than 100 equates to poor special teams and anything that’s 105 or above exceptional. Clearly this part of the game needs to considered to see the big picture. But what percentage? What weight does it hold in relation to 5 on 5?
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Thanks for the support lads. It was no doubt a long read for anyone that actually read it haha, but hopefully provides some useful info.
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Even as a complete novice to all this, something tells me the Ranger’s PDO regressed to the mean in a big way tonight.?

Yup - already down to 106.0 from 107.1 after tonight. One crazy stat:

The Rangers' 5v5/SA PDO tonight was 79.4. Having said that, it was only the 4th time this season in 22 games that their PDO was below 100. The other 3 were 99.4, 97.5 and 91.4.

So while it definitely took a big hit tonight, keep in mind that at 106.0 it's still the highest in at least the last decade at this point in the season by a decent margin.

Terrific thread Feddz. My only regret is I didn’t read it early enough to take a little on the Canadians tonight.

It took me most of the afternoon (PST) before the games started to get the post typed up (don't tell my wife! haha), and I only got it up a few minutes before puck drop unfortunately. The good news is, there should still be plenty more good spots to fade them imo.

You really need to forward this to war-on-ice. Well written, thought out, and explained so simply even I can understand.

Flattering of you to say so, but I'm sure there's lots of this stuff out there!

How do you factor in special teams to these stats Feddz? I always used the 100 number as my barometer, (Adding the PK% + PP%). Anything less than 100 equates to poor special teams and anything that’s 105 or above exceptional. Clearly this part of the game needs to considered to see the big picture. But what percentage? What weight does it hold in relation to 5 on 5?

Hard to know how to factor it in, as obviously my numbers completely take special teams out of the equation. 100 is still a decent benchmark I think. And of course it's absolutely relevant, as special teams decide plenty of games. Having said that, in my experience the teams that dominate possession and scoring chances 5v5 are the real powerhouses. There are always a few outliers on both PP or PK who defy the odds based on their personnel by having really good systems or a lot of luck.

So i'm not sure what weighting special teams should get - maybe 20%? That seems high as they can be so flukey. How much of a game is spent up - or down - a man? That would probably be a good starting point.
So to kind of answer your question - the fact that there are things like special teams just shows how you can't simply take the numbers I have and make bets. Each aspect is one piece of the puzzle. But special teams are not as repeatable long-term as Corsi/SC are, so are more a part of the luck/uncappable parts of the game that you have to consider imo.
 

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,203
Tokens
Feddz...Great stuff but we shouldn't be surprised. All your stuff is pretty fucking awesome.
 

I don't know enough to know I don't know
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
12,487
Tokens
Yup - already down to 106.0 from 107.1 after tonight. One crazy stat:

The Rangers' 5v5/SA PDO tonight was 79.4. Having said that, it was only the 4th time this season in 22 games that their PDO was below 100. The other 3 were 99.4, 97.5 and 91.4.

So while it definitely took a big hit tonight, keep in mind that at 106.0 it's still the highest in at least the last decade at this point in the season by a decent margin.

Can you give me the link to these numbers? I kind of get lost with war-on-ice. I checked Sporting Charts and they show completely different numbers.
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/team-pdo-numbers-save-plus-shooting-percentage/2015/
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
War on ice is definitely tricky to navigate at first, as it's not all that user-friendly, but once you figure it out there is an insane amount of information on there. Sporting charts data looks correct, but is mostly surface stats - nerds like me like to break it all down haha.
The reason for the discrepancy is because the PDO on Sporting Charts is taken for all situations, whereas the data I used in my post was for even strength 5v5, and score-adjusted. I think it's more representative to do it that way, as it removes the massive swings you get in pp/pk and when teams are ahead/behind. If you look at all situations with war-on-ice you get identical numbers. I can understand the argument for considering all situations more relevant for PDO (but I'm not sure I agree with it), but for Corsi and Scoring chances I think that the 5v5 and score-adjusted numbers provide a much clearer picture as to a team's quality.

http://war-on-ice.com/teamtable.html

go there ^^, then make sure that the drop downs at the top-left are showing all under "Team Strengths" and "Score Situation." You'll see that the numbers are the same as the link you provided.
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
And as I said, war-on-ice takes some time to navigate and get comfortable with, but has ridiculous amounts of cool info. If you get bored try playing with the Team Hextally stuff (under Teams drop-down) http://war-on-ice.com/hexteams.html. It's pretty awesome stuff, and some people find it easier to look at pictures to understand what's happening.
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Looks like I'm not the only one bear-ish on the Rangers!:


"The numbers will catch up to the New York Rangers at some point.
The Rangers have the highest 5-on-5 shooting percentage plus save percentage (SPSv%) in the NHL, and by a wide margin. There's no reason to believe Henrik Lundqvist's goaltending will dip much, but the team shooting percentage is not likely to stay above 10 percent as it is now.
No team has shot over 10 percent in an 82-game season since the 2009-10 Washington Capitals were at 10.1 percent, according to war-on-ice.com. That team had a 50-goal scorer, a 40-goal scorer, a 30-goal scorer and four 20-goal scorers. The Rangers, well, they won't have that.
New York has been winning despite being dominated in the possession game and being regularly outshot. At some point, the offense will begin to dry up, and securing wins will become more difficult."

Copied and pasted from: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=789899
 

I don't know enough to know I don't know
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
12,487
Tokens
I took a flyer on the Bruins today, (in regulation no less), mostly due to this thread. Very fortunate to cash that ticket obviously but still felt I was on the right side regardless of the outcome.

Thanks for the winner Feddz.
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Sweet - glad to hear it. I had them on the ML so was happy to see their comeback too. I didn't get a chance to watch the game at all but it seemed pretty evenly played - one of those times (and I obviously think we'll see more of them) where the luck didn't go the Rangers' way...
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
actually I take that back - numbers say that at 5v5 the Rangers were steamrolled yet again: CF% of 44.5 and SCF% of 43.7. And a PDO of 103.4 despite losing the game (Boston got 2 PP goals and NYR 1 PP goal)
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
6,478
Tokens
actually I take that back - numbers say that at 5v5 the Rangers were steamrolled yet again: CF% of 44.5 and SCF% of 43.7. And a PDO of 103.4 despite losing the game (Boston got 2 PP goals and NYR 1 PP goal)
Im not seeing what your seeing in that game at all Feddz. Bruins 2nd and 3rd goal were both scored on the PP. 5 on 5 in MY score adjusted Corsi the Rangers played the Bruins pretty even this afternoon. I personally put very little weight behind a teams corsi numbers when they are down in a game as 80% of the time their corsi numbers will be better trying to play catchup. Eliminate those numbers in your score keeping and it was a pretty even game in Boston no less. Bruins outcorsied the Rangers today 64-55 but that difference was generated when the B's were not only down a goal but on the PP on 2 different occasions. NOt to mention the game winner came on a deflection Henrik

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/game.php?season=20152016&game=20330
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Im not seeing what your seeing in that game at all Feddz.

Thanks for commenting Bushay - I didn't see anything as I didn't watch the game, which I mentioned in my post, although you might be speaking metaphorically?

Bruins 2nd and 3rd goal were both scored on the PP. 5 on 5 in MY score adjusted Corsi the Rangers played the Bruins pretty even this afternoon. I personally put very little weight behind a teams corsi numbers when they are down in a game as 80% of the time their corsi numbers will be better trying to play catchup.

I don't put too much stock in them either, which is why all of the numbers I use are score-adjusted. It takes score-effects into account, like the situation you mentioned. And the link you sent at the end of your post isn't score-adjusted (which you may know), and also isn't 5v5, it's EV, which also includes 4v4. Not a big deal, but changes the numbers a little (NYR outshot BOS 2-0 at 4v4)


Eliminate those numbers in your score keeping and it was a pretty even game in Boston no less. Bruins outcorsied the Rangers today 64-55 but that difference was generated when the B's were not only down a goal but on the PP on 2 different occasions. NOt to mention the game winner came on a deflection Henrik

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/game.php?season=20152016&game=20330

Bruins out-corsied the Rangers 64-55 in ALL situations, yes. 5v5 score-adjusted it was 53.7-43.1 (55.5%), and the scoring chances were 33.4-25.9 (56.3%) in the same circumstances. The Rangers out-corsied the Bruins on special teams. So I don't really agree with your assertions that it was an even game based on the numbers. Watching the game matters a lot of course, and it may have been a much more even game than the numbers bear out, but I didn't see it. Of course taking one game in isolation and saying that one dominated the other based purely on the numbers above is a bit of a stretch, that's fair. But you can't say that those numbers are even either, when if you maintained said numbers for the whole season, you'd be one of the top/bottom few teams...

Lastly, the fact that the GWG came on a deflection past Henrik just reinforces my point of the long post - that the Rangers have been getting a ridiculous number of lucky bounces to this point in the season, and that's not going to last
 

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
2,342
Tokens
Rangers steamrolled for most of tonight again, but their special teams and goalie bailed them out. Obviously there's no shame in that, that's part of the game of course, but special teams are just not the most consistent or sustainable thing to count on. I don't know what's a scarier thought - how good Carolina would be with a goalie, or how bad the Rangers would be without Lundqvist...

NYR @ NYI next up on Wednesday. Any thoughts on the line? If it's anything better than NYI -120 I'm going to pound it.
 

I don't know enough to know I don't know
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
12,487
Tokens
No question this game was decided by another bad performance by Cam Ward, (and Ranger PP as you said). Terrible rebounds by him and the score could have been worse. Meanwhile I don’t see where Lundqvist was really tested and when he was he failed. I think Lundqvist is in one of those funks that all goalies experience during the course of a long season and obviously beatable, especially 5 hole. Confidence is such a fragile thing for goalies and I don’t think he’s feeling it right now.

As far as Wednesday it would have to be a fade Ranger mentality for me as the Islanders have been underwhelming in my eyes this year. Not even close to meeting the expectations I had for them before the season started. However when you compare the two rosters I think the Islanders are the superior team in all ways except in goal. With Lundqvist experiencing this less than stellar streak I’ll be with you again. The other Ranger strength this year with special teams is basically a wash between these two especially considering the Islanders seem to be turning their’s around, (3/6 PP, 0/7 PK last two).

I think your -120 for the Islanders is spot on.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,787
Messages
13,572,974
Members
100,863
Latest member
brokenplanethoodiec
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com