The goal in Iraq is victory, not withdrawal

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TheRightWing

TheRightWing

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No Time to Go Wobbly
[font=Garamond, Times]The goal in Iraq is victory, not withdrawal.[/font]
[font=Verdana, Times]
BY BRENDAN MINITER
Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT



The last thing we need in Iraq is a timeline for withdrawal. Victory sets its own schedule, and it's not contingent on the U.S. election calendar. Arbitrarily forcing a timetable on the battlefield will only aid the enemy. Yet a growing number of politicians are now calling for just that--or, at least, a better (read more negative) official accounting of what's happening in Iraq. With polls showing less support for the war and pols parroting that public opinion, we're in danger of losing sight of how to defeat the enemy.

Sen. Joe Biden, a Delaware Democrat, joined the parade over the weekend while also bluntly saying he's looking at a presidential bid in 2008--although he was careful to add that he thinks the next presidential election will turn on national security. Rep. Harold Ford Jr., normally a somewhat sensible Tennessee Democrat, has also joined the procession and hopes his call for a timeline will help win him the Senate seat Bill Frist is vacating. And it's not just Democrats. Sen. Chuck Hagel is making similar noises as he considers his own presidential bid.



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In another era the U.S. probably wouldn't need to be involved with tens of thousands of troops in the Middle East. But then in another era, Osama bin Laden would be a two-bit thug, the Iranian mullahs would be little squirts, and we Americans could go on with our lives oblivious to them all. There have always been and always will be terrorists. What's different today is that in a large swath of territory, mostly the Middle East and the Horn of Africa, civilization itself has been disintegrating. In the 1990s it reached a point where organized terrorists would be able to amass tremendous power and weapons capable of spreading mass chaos in the Western world. That's the enemy we have to keep our eye on defeating.



Outside Israel, and to a lesser extent Turkey and Lebanon, democracy is something new in the Middle East. So as we struggle now to keep a lid on the violence, it's hard not to get demoralized with the notion that it's not possible to build a civil society because the region has always been mired in the kind of chaos it finds itself in now. But that, of course, isn't true. Afghanistan may have always been on the edge of the world, but Iraq once enjoyed a relatively wealthy and well educated middle class. In Iraq, civil society began a steep decline only after Saddam Hussein hijacked the country. Iran too was once home to a burgeoning educated class, but that was before the revolution. Beirut was the "Paris" of the region, with the wealth and sophistication to match, before civil war destroyed the city and the country. The region began its breakdown thanks in part to Soviet pressure, and now, Islamofacists have outlived the communists. The end results are the same under either system--poverty, oppression and aggression toward the West.

President Bush made the case to invade Iraq mostly on the basis of weapons of mass destruction. The stockpiles everyone thought the U.S. military would unearth have not been found. But the danger of a failed and chaotic state headed by a madman in the center of the Middle East stands. Saddam clearly had designs on acquiring all sorts of weapons, and he was a walking WMD because his very hold on power was leveling efforts to restore civil society. What we needed in Iraq was not a dictator to keep the lid on the chaos, but a society with cops, troops and intelligence officers going after al Qaeda operatives. Empowering Iraqis to choose their own leaders will give us that because democracy is the antithesis of the chaos in which terrorists thrive.



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The hope, of course, is that as democracy takes root in Iraq it will spread to the rest of the region. Since the invasion there have been plenty of encouraging signs. Lebanon and Egypt appear to be moving in the right direction. And even Syria is looking to set up its first stock exchange, perhaps a precursor to liberalizing economic reforms. Inside Iraq a civil government is slowly standing up even as the insurgency continues to pull off deadly attacks.

This is a war of civil society versus the agents of anarchy. We don't need to set a schedule to accept defeat. We need more civil societies to help us keep a lid on the violence that will otherwise creep into our lives. That's what the war in Iraq is about and why winning it remains in our nation's vital interests.

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docmercer--banned

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Yeah, well with "Ike, Jr" blowing off advice from his old man... with "Ike, Jr" blowing off advice from military strategists that 400,000 troops would be needed .... with "Ike,Jr" having no exit strategy, etc

BOL ... YOUR BOY got this country into this mess and time for the Bushies to take their medicine
 

919

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i thought the goal was revenge/ kill terrorists/ WMDs/ nukular weapons turning into mushroom clouds/ sadam bad/ democracy....
 
TheRightWing

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read the whole article boys just not the headline......
 

919

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The Right Wing said:
read the whole article boys just not the headline......

i know...im just so used to getting new reasons for war....same war that is....whether or not we are victorious and peace spreads across the middle east will be some time from now....long from now....
 
TheRightWing

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it's a long haul and many more deaths but the result could change that region there fore change the world for the best!
 
TheRightWing

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More good news.....

General: U.S. likely to begin drawdown of forces in Iraq next year
Tue Jun 21 2005 10:35:37 ET

The US military will probably begin withdrawing some forces from Iraq by next March after a political transition to an elected Iraqi government is completed, a top US commander said Tuesday.

AFP wire reports: Lieutenant General John Vines said that any drawdown would depend on conditions on the ground and that an abrupt large-scale withdrawal would be unwise. But he said as many as four or five brigades would probably come out in March.

"I suspect we will probably draw down capability after the election, because Iraqi security forces are more capable," Vines said in a two-way press conference via video link from Iraq.

Developing...
 

CAPNCRUNCH

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The Right Wing said:
it's a long haul and many more deaths but the result could change that region there fore change the world for the best!
We have a better chance of seeing Jesus :smoker2: come back before we see peace and democracy in the Middle East! :toast:
 
TheRightWing

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Again it's very sad that the "LEFT" want's the US to fail in Iraq so you can throw out the told you so!!!!! Time and time again it just amazing me how some people live a normal life hoping for failure.
 

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The Right Wing said:
Again it's very sad that the "LEFT" want's the US to fail in Iraq so you can throw out the told you so!!!!! Time and time again it just amazing me how some people live a normal life hoping for failure.
I will accept responsibility for the libs and not say ' I told you so', we will heap praise on W for a 'great victory' and let him unfurl a great big 'mission accomplished' banner on the White House. He can have a great big parade down Pennsylvania Avenue, (of course nobody can attend for security reasons), we will all praise him for his alacrity of mind and great courage in battle. We will do all of this if he would just pull those kids out and let the frigging Iraqis have their civil war like you know they will! Peace now,brother!:smoker2:
 
JinnRikki

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Remember when bush said "If they want us to leave, we'll leave?"

Eighty-two Iraqi parliamentarians have sent a letter to the speaker of the house demanding that the United States withdraw its troops from Iraq. Some of the leaders of this movement come from the United Iraqi Alliance, the coalition of religious Shiite parties that has a majority of the 275 seats. Their demand is still that of a (sizeable) minority and has not been endorsed by Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari. The demand will certainly come from an ever greater number of parliamentarians as time goes on. At the moment, most Iraqi politicians already wish the US would leave, but are afraid that the guerrilla movement would kill them without US protection.
As its allies draw down their forces in the next few months, the US looks increasingly as though it is going it alone in Iraq. As a unilateral power there, it lacks legitimacy. It is not going to be able to stay in that country, and will not be given permanent bases there by an elected Iraqi government.

The United States will eventually have to go to the United Nations and request that it send a peace-enforcing mission to Iraq, as the US military withdraws. The relevant model is the UNTAC experience in Cambodia, which, while it had substantial flaws, was also a relative success. In the long term, perhaps 5-10 years, the Iraqi government may develop its own military that could keep order. That development is far enough off, however, that there is likely to be a significant gap between the time the US leaves and the time the Iraqis can fend for themselves.

...
All Iraqis would see the United Nations as having more legitimacy than the United States. The UN would be much more likely to be able to negotiate a settlement among the Sunnis and Shiites than is the US. And, the world has more troops than the US does. (The Europeans are over-stretched, so the force would mainly come from the global South. Iraq does not want neighbors involved, so South and Southeast Asia seem likely providers of troops.)

Would the Iraqi government accept a United Nations military mission? Almost certainly. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani has often attempted to involve the UN, and would welcome such a development. The Sunni Arabs would also much prefer to deal with the UN than with the US.
 
Coldweather

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The goal should be clear. Kill the enemy, all of them. take their stuff, all of it and get the hell out. Anything short of that is bad. Very very bad.

:suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi:
 

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"Again it's very sad that the "LEFT" want's the US to fail in Iraq so you can throw out the told you so."

Who said anything about "hoping" that they fail? Some of us look at the reality behind the numbers Iraq is producing and the fact that you've been over there for two years now with no strategy or solution to the mess you're in......looking at those numbers leads me, along with others to believe that we are NOT winning, and won't win if we spend another 5 or 10 years doing the same thing as we have.

Like CAP'N CRUNCH.....if you guys can find a way to win this thing and leave democracy and all good intent behind and thriving in Iraq, then hey, great, all the power to you.

You're not going to win this thing driving around the hummer waiting for it to blow up. You won't win it in 2 years or 5 years or 10 employing the same strategy, so how can you guys justify using the same non-existent strategy for the next years to come......all you guys are going to do is double or triple the loss already incurred, with nothing to show for it. You guys kill a few insurgents, they in turn blow up a police precinct or shred a hummer with a roadside bomb. Do you guys realize this will only repeat everyday for years to come? Look at Israel/Palestine for the most current example if you don't believe me.

Hoping you guys fail and visibly watching your efforts go down the drain are two different things......just because we aren't cheering to stoke the fire with more American bodies and billions of dollars doesn't mean we hope you fail. We just see the numbers and the conduct and see no way to end this war the way the Bushies are choosing to fight it.

Israel and Palestine have had decades to work out thier differences and stop the suicide attacks and bombings, all they have done is put a wall up and now the bombers work on blowing up the checkpoints....

Are the numbers in Iraq going to have to triple or quadruple before you guys get the idea that all this democracy and kill all the insurgents thing isn't working out and isn't going to work out?
 
xpanda

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Why do people think that it was ever the US's job to model the Mid East after the West?
 
koidog

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xpanda said:
Why do people think that it was ever the US's job to model the Mid East after the West?

Besides this war, which I know you're against... you think we should just leave the Middle East alone? Wasn't it a matter of time before we HAD to get involved in one way or the other?

I'm gonna believe Democracy can work there. I mean 60 years ago who thought Democracy would work in Japan?
 
eek.

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Vorwarts to Victory! No surrender!

(p.s. Have u guys ever heard of Stalingrad?
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xpanda

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koidog said:
Besides this war, which I know you're against... you think we should just leave the Middle East alone? Wasn't it a matter of time before we HAD to get involved in one way or the other?

So I say why do you think it's the US's job to model the ME after the West and you get that I am saying you should just leave the MidEast alone altogether? I'm not sure what you mean maybe, but I think having ambassadors and that sort of thing (you know, normal international relations stuff) is generally a reasonable expectation.

'Having to get involved one way or another' didn't mean dropping bombs on a nation that did nothing - nor could really do anything - of significance to you. Especially when the culprits who actually did do something to you seemed to have dropped off the White House's collective radar.

Democracy may flourish in the ME. But that doesn't make this war justifiable, nor does it really address the reasons why the US was attacked in the first place. Religious extremism is alive and well in many democratic nations after all.
 
koidog

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I mean eventually there was going to be a war in the Middle East one way or the other. Don't take this wrong, I'm not using this Logic as defense of this war...just pointing out that I would say was inevitable.

And I disagree, if Democracy flourishes in the middle East in the Next decade it does justify this war. Certainly it wasn't flourishing going to happen without war.

And with thriving Democracies, religious extremism can not flourish like it has been.
 
xpanda

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koidog said:
I mean eventually there was going to be a war in the Middle East one way or the other. Don't take this wrong, I'm not using this Logic as defense of this war...just pointing out that I would say was inevitable.

Sure. And 9/11 brought about the war with Afghanistan. While I have mixed feelings on that war, at least a direct correlation to self-defense seemed more or less believable.

And I disagree, if Democracy flourishes in the middle East in the Next decade it does justify this war. Certainly it wasn't flourishing going to happen without war.

No, it doesn't. Just like Bin Laden's trying to incite more Islamic extremism (and bringing back theocracies) by attacking the US doesn't justify the attack. Using violence as a means to shape a society is for neanderthals and dictators, not peaceful people.

And with thriving Democracies, religious extremism can not flourish like it has been.

Democracies and theocracies have been holding hands for years.

What the world really needs isn't democracy. It's capitalism. When people have money, and can concern themselves with their own individual livelihoods, the chances of them being willing to give all of that up to fight a war - and risk death - that doesn't directly benefit them diminishes exponentially. Before you say that capitalism thrives under democracy, look at the UAE (and even China), then have a gander at our respective societies. We are both mired in corporatism and our 'democratically elected' gov'ts are bending us over on a daily basis. They can control the numbers living in poverty with a flip of the monetary-policy switch, turn up the propaganda machine, and create a whole new flock of people willing to 'die for their country'. It sickens me.
 
Woody0

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Victory was declared in May 2003 (how soon we forget).

What's the goal now?
 

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