The Battle For The Bible (and is it real?)

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SSI

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In this thread, i neither wish to condemn or conform anyone.. I would merely like for all the facts to be presented and not just the side of the atheists.. I believe that i can offer lots of proof both scientific, historical and archeological to show that the bible is real and that God is indeed its author.. The bible is a collection of books and letters written by many writers over an approximate 1600 year time period.. The writers were not merely men but were inspired men of God.. Lets start, shall we? and this will be an ongoing thread for me, as i have countless things to say and proof to offer but ill need time to bring it all here..

One of the greatest proofs that the bible is inspired is the evidence of thousands of detailed prophecies that were fulfilled to the smallest detail throughout history. Centuries before the evenets occurred ancient prophets foretold the rise and fall of empires (including babylon) as well as the cities of Tyre and Nineveh. I have some acrcheological proof that ill present later, showing the cities of Tyre and Nineveh did exist, they have been found. I would now and first like to talk with you about some of the prophecies that have been fulfilled in our lifetime. Lets examine in detail several of these fascinating predictions to illustrate the tremendous precision of bible prophecies as proof that God inspired the writers of the bible..

1. The rebirth of Israel.

The rebirth of Israel is one of the most extraordinary and unlikely of all the prophecies in the Bible. Jesus Christ foretold of the rebirth of Israel in his famous prophecy of the "fig tree". He declared in Matthew 24:32-35: Now learn the parable of the fig tree; When his branch is tender, and putteth forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh: so likewise when ye see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. No other ancient nation ever ceased to exist for a period of centuries and then returned to take its place on the stage of world history.

Isiah 66:8, Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion trevailed, she brought forth her children.

Most nations evolved gradually over time, no one has ever witnessed a nation created "in one day". Yet in his prediction Isiah prophesied that Israel would come into existence "in one day". The prophecy came true and were fullfilled as predicted on May 15th 1948..

2. The astonishing fertility of Israel.

In addition to recovering their homeland, the prophet Isiah predicted that Israel would become fertile once again. Isiah 27:6, He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud and fill the face of the world with fruit. The returning Jews have transformed the previously deserted and desolate land into the most agriculturally efficient land on earth according to the UN. Tiny Israel now supplies over 90% of the citrus fruit consumed by hundreds of millions of europeans.

another prophecy made by the prophet Joel declares that the desert nation of Israel would experience tremendous increases in rain in the last days. Joel 2:23, Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God, for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain... The rainfall in Israel has increased dramatically by over 10% every decade for the last century. The returning Jews have planted over 200 million trees and transformed the complete environment of the Promised Land. Read some articles from astronauts flying in the space shuttel, Tiny Israle is green, while the surrounding land is brown...... why is that?

I have many other things to say that go into much greater detail, lets not clutter this up too much as i merely want to state many facts... I have scientific, historical and archaeological ones to present.. these are not faith based facts but real ones, that you guys can understand..

I have many other things to say about bible prophecy but later, i can tell you about the revised roman empire, the one world government, famines, pestilence, deadly diseases that are all foretold in our future... I also want to tell you many facts about the health issues that are told in the bible, the laws of hygiene and sanitation given...

But ill leave you with another prophecy.

3. The rise of major killer earthquakes.

Jesus told that in the last days, our generation would experience the greates earthquakes in history. Other prophets predicted these events as well but i wont list all of them (unless asked to do so). Jesus said, massive earthquakes will occur in diverse places (strange places), that is and has been occuring. However and this is my point, Major killer quakes (7.2 or higher on the richter scale) occurred only once per decade throughout history, until our century. However since 1900 the growth in major quakes has been relentless. From 1900-1949 major quakes occured about 3 per decade. However in the 1950's we had a reported 9 killer quakes,,, 13 were reported in the 1960's, 56 in the 1970's and an amazing 74 major quakes in the 1980's. Finally in the 1990's there were 125 major quakes reported. This information is from (The US geological survey earthquake report, in boulder colorado)... The prophets warned that in the last days, this planet will be shaken as never before.. Does the above statistics sound like business as usual or are earthquakes increasing?

Ill return with many more facts, just give me time...
 

kaiz

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Have read the first paragraph... I am a little pissed at the moment - so i dont want to dismiss this if you think its true,,, BUT- I believe that i can offer lots of proof both scientific, historical and archeological to show that the bible is real and that God is indeed its author.. The bible is a collection of books and letters written by many writers ...


HOW CAN GOD BE THE AUTHOR IF ITS A COLLRCTION OF BOOKS AND LETTERS WRITTEN BY NANY AUTHORS......Thens its just another story
 

SSI

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Lets skip now to the question of where did the universe originate?

There are 4 fundamental scientific reasons why the universe and life itself could never have come into existence without a Creator. The 2nd Law of thermodynamics is the most fundamental and simple of all the reasons. This law states that the total amount of energy in the known universe is running down, the constant loss of usuable energy is decreasing and the universe is running out of usuable energy. This law is fundamental because science has never found an exception to this observation. The obvious conclusion to this, is that if the universe is running down ------- then at some point in time, the universe must have been created and has been running down ever since... This means that the early work of some of the evolution scientist is wrong, when they stated the universe has always existed..

In addition, since the univers is running down, there have have been some point in time where all the usuable energy was available, , the moment of its beginning or creation.. The question that must then be answered is where did the universe and all its massive energy come from? When did it begin? It is illogical to believe that the universe came into being -- out of nowhere, accidentally or by random chance without a designer or creator.. The only logical conclusion is that the universe was created out of nothing by a Creator with an intelligent design and supernatural power... That Creator my friends, is God...

Ill stay on the scientific theme for a while, in my next few posts... Next topic will be, " the impossibility that a prebiotic soup ever existed on earth, and that life generated from non-life or inanimate non-living elements..
 

SSI

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Kaiz, God inspired its writers... ill present countless facts as to how ancient man could not have known these things.. many are in the medical field and were not known to modern man until this century.. things such as quarantine and washing hands in running water.. have you ever studied medical practices in ancient egypt? they were terrible and nonsense, yet the bible offers different ones and these were occurring at the same time... things the bible reveals about deadly germs and infectious diseases...

dont you find it astonishing that man did not know to wash his hands in running water until the 1870's... civil war surgeons killed many by going from patient to patient without washing their hands in running water.. yet the bible states to do this in the book of Leviticus,, how could the Jews around 1500 BC have known to do this and modern man in 1865 not know this...

there are countless facts to know..
 
quantumleap

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I'm sorry, but you should really do more research if you want to be taken seriously. Here is an excerpt from the USGS Earthquake web page.

http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/general/increase_in_earthquakes.html

We continue to be asked by many people throughout the world if earthquakes are on the increase. Although it may seem that we are having more earthquakes, earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or greater have remained fairly constant.

A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in global communications.
 
quantumleap

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Here's another bit of information.

http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/7up.html

Number of Magnitude 7.0 and Greater Earthquakes per Year,
Since 1900



1900 13 1930 13 1960 22 1990 18
1901 14 1931 26 1961 18 1991 16
1902 8 1932 13 1962 15 1992 13
1903 10 1933 14 1963 20 1993 12
1904 16 1934 22 1964 15 1994 13
1905 26 1935 24 1965 22 1995 20
1906 32 1936 21 1966 19 1996 15
1907 27 1937 22 1967 16 1997 16
1908 18 1938 26 1968 30 1998 12
1909 32 1939 21 1969 27 1999 18
1910 36 1940 23 1970 29 2000 15
1911 24 1941 24 1971 23 2001 16
1912 22 1942 27 1972 20 2002 13
1913 23 1943 41 1973 16 2003 15
1914 22 1944 31 1974 21 2004 15
1915 18 1945 27 1975 21
1916 25 1946 35 1976 25
1917 21 1947 26 1977 16
1918 21 1948 28 1978 18
1919 14 1949 36 1979 15
1920 8 1950 39 1980 18
1921 11 1951 21 1981 14
1922 14 1952 17 1982 10
1923 23 1953 22 1983 15
1924 18 1954 17 1984 8
1925 17 1955 19 1985 15
1926 19 1956 15 1986 6
1927 20 1957 34 1987 11
1928 22 1958 10 1988 8
1929 19 1959 15 1989 7

Total 1900-2004 = 2049 earthquakes
Average: 19.5 magnitude 7.0 and greater earthquakes per year



Based on new techniques, such as moment magnitude, a systematic review of all large events is underway. It is expected that as this review continues, these numbers will change. The review has been completed for events from 1990 to the present.

Statistics were compiled from the Earthquake Data Base System of the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center, Golden CO
 

SSI

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ok, let us then consider the earths population.. according to scripture, 8 people comprising 4 couples survived the great flood approximately 4300 years ago.. to be conservative we will make these statements, assuming in this example mankind started 4300 years ago with only one surviving couple and that all families produced only 2.5 children on average over the following centuries.. This rate of population is much slower than we are experiencing today.. If families only 2 children --- then the population would remain constant without any growth... this conseravtive consumption of 2.5 children will take into account for the natural depletion caused by war, famine and disease.. throughout history the average lifespan has lasted around 43 years per generation.. using these assumptions, during the last 4300 years, there would have been 100 generations, lasting 43 years each. the calculations reveal that our population would have grown to approximately 5.7 billion people worldwide....... pretty darn close to the number quoted in todays world..

however let us look at evolutions theroy of mankinds beginnings,, millions of years ago.. the evolutionary scientists who believe this have an insurmountable problem.. using the same assumptions of 43 years per average for a human generation.. the population growth would have produced a conservative 23,200 generations.. these calculations reveal that using the same 2.5 children per couple, there should be around 10 to the 2000th power of people here today... those numbers do not even make sense... what is the reason for these differences in the numbers.. there should be trillions of people here today and not approximately 6 billion...

The conclusion is obvious, the bibles account of Noah and his family repopulating the earth after the great flood is accurate and in complete agreement with todays poipulation.......
 
edub69

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to be conservative we will make these statements, assuming in this example mankind started 4300 years ago with only one surviving couple and that all families produced only 2.5 children on average over the following centuries.. This rate of population is much slower than we are experiencing today.. If families only 2 children --- then the population would remain constant without any growth... this conseravtive consumption of 2.5 children will take into account for the natural depletion caused by war, famine and disease.. throughout history the average lifespan has lasted around 43 years per generation.. using these assumptions, during the last 4300 years, there would have been 100 generations, lasting 43 years each. the calculations reveal that our population would have grown to approximately 5.7 billion people worldwide....... pretty darn close to the number quoted in todays world..

References please....no way of verifying any of your numbers which appear rigged to reach a certain conclusion.
 

SSI

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the population numbers need no references,, you do the simple math.. the biblical flood of Noah happened 4300 years ago, 8 people survived... thats 100 generations of 43 years, that simple math.. give each couple 2.5 kids... now how many people are here..

however start at millions of years ago, now do the same basic math... then tell me how many people should be here...

in fact skew the numbers drastically to suit yourself and you still come up with trillions, a far cry from the 6 billion -- and that is a widely accepted number...

where are the rest of your people?
 
edub69

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you're arbitrarily giving each couple 2.5 kids for one thing. It is hard to debate with your figures because they are your own figures.

As far as the running water thing you keep mentioning, I read Leviticus and there is really only one mention, in passing, of running water in regard to cleanliness, and from the gist of the text it would be easy to assume that all the water references are related to religious ceremony rather than conveying some brilliant knowledge of medicine. Besides, if man didn't know to wash in running water until the Civil War, I guess no member of humanity was following all the dictates of the Bible...
 

SSI

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i was pretty much right on with the population thing... you can pick (1-2-3) children but either way, you are going to get a heck of alot closer to todays population,,,,,,,,,,, than you are going back millions and millions of years and giving each couple say 1/2 a child... this point is often overlooked but is really important in my opinion... 4300 years ago, 2.5 children per couple ---- comes up to around 6 billion people... or millions of years ago, 1-2 children per couple... comes up to trillions of people.... not that difficult..


and hold on: Leviticus 15:13 says, and when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue.. then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing and wash his clothes and bathe his flesh in "Running Water", and shall be clean...

you see God gave the Israelities many laws of sanitaion and hygeine... he told them to do things -- that was not immediatly understood until many years later.. you cannot however doubt that modern man did not know to wash his hands in running water (and im speaking specifically of doctors now) until sometime after the civil war, this is not a questioned fact..

If you would like, i will tell you the medical importance of the "Red Heifer Sacrifice". it was in fact a very effective antil-bacterial agent..
 
quantumleap

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Stinger. said:
i was pretty much right on with the population thing... you can pick (1-2-3) children but either way, you are going to get a heck of alot closer to todays population,,,,,,,,,,, than you are going back millions and millions of years and giving each couple say 1/2 a child... this point is often overlooked but is really important in my opinion... 4300 years ago, 2.5 children per couple ---- comes up to around 6 billion people... or millions of years ago, 1-2 children per couple... comes up to trillions of people.... not that difficult..

Your statements show no reasoning as to how you came upon your conclusions. Are you using the same reasoning you used for the earthquake theory that has been shown to be wrong?
 

SSI

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My numbers may be a little off on the earthquake but can you account for the population problem... you do believe people have been here ------ what is it, around 55 million years, and obviously we started with at least 2 at sometime, possibly thousands evolved all at once, if thats so your population problem is greater...

Jesus said there would be earthquakes in diverse places, maybe i pushed too hard on the earthquake issue,,,,, but i have many many more for you...

tell me what kind of math you do on the population thing, you pick the numbers.. i say, start my chart with 8 people -- 4300 years ago.. you complete the rest...
 
quantumleap

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Stinger. said:
My numbers may be a little off on the earthquake but can you account for the population problem... you do believe people have been here ------ what is it, around 55 million years, and obviously we started with at least 2 at sometime, possibly thousands evolved all at once, if thats so your population problem is greater...

Jesus said there would be earthquakes in diverse places, maybe i pushed too hard on the earthquake issue,,,,, but i have many many more for you...

tell me what kind of math you do on the population thing, you pick the numbers.. i say, start my chart with 8 people -- 4300 years ago.. you complete the rest...

You are over-simplifying a complex situation. What about times when populations are on the decrease? In other words, it's possible that humans started out 10's of thousands of years ago and then the population decreased. You can't use 6,000 years with a simple equation. Life is more complex than that.

Your numbers were not a little off, they were completely wrong. How can anyone take you seriously when you outright lie when you are proven wrong? People then think you might be lying about the population numbers.
 
edub69

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Stinger. said:
i was pretty much right on with the population thing... you can pick (1-2-3) children but either way, you are going to get a heck of alot closer to todays population,,,,,,,,,,, than you are going back millions and millions of years and giving each couple say 1/2 a child... this point is often overlooked but is really important in my opinion... 4300 years ago, 2.5 children per couple ---- comes up to around 6 billion people... or millions of years ago, 1-2 children per couple... comes up to trillions of people.... not that difficult..


and hold on: Leviticus 15:13 says, and when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue.. then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing and wash his clothes and bathe his flesh in "Running Water", and shall be clean...

you see God gave the Israelities many laws of sanitaion and hygeine... he told them to do things -- that was not immediatly understood until many years later.. you cannot however doubt that modern man did not know to wash his hands in running water (and im speaking specifically of doctors now) until sometime after the civil war, this is not a questioned fact..

If you would like, i will tell you the medical importance of the "Red Heifer Sacrifice". it was in fact a very effective antil-bacterial agent..

The Bible contains thousands of pages and billions of words, eventually anyone looking to resolve an argument by picking two words in one verse could probably find something to support both sides of an argument...all the other references to running water that I was able to find indicate that its primary purpose was ceremonial. Also, considering they had no plumbing back then, the only way to wash in running water would have been to go to a river, not very practical, especially in the desert...

Also, I doubt you'd disagree that earth could not come close to supporting populations of over a trillion humans, so that is a red herring. In reality population growth curves are from linear and are subject to global climate and seismic events, especially back in primitive times, and these events had a drastic impact on human population growth.
 

SSI

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quantum, i never lied, lets not resort to that.. i am going to give many facts here.. but the population question, i am not wrong on.. you can twist the numbers any way you want,,, im telling you to twist them here,,,, and you will not even be close..

edbu, i believe they had wells back then and camel skins to store water in.. surely you recall that.... and i can tell you that my numbers about the population are right on.. you cannot challenge the fact that by taking 8 people over 4300 years, giving each couple 2.5 children, and allowing for 43 years per generation, that you come up with close to 6 billion people.. you just dont want to admit that... but mathematics back ME on this one...

edbu, do not forget, i answered your water question... along with the fact that, God told ancient man in different ways than he would tell someone today.. you stated yourself that they had no plumbling but they did have running water. simply pouring stored water over something makes it "running water"..

overtime, i will give you many things that you cannot dispute... and quantum im sure somewhere over the last 4300 years there has been population decreases in my time frame to.. good luck with the millions of years thing..

apologies if i offended anyone, really hoping to keep this civil..
 
edub69

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Sure, mathematics using parameters that were set arbitrarily by you back your opinion, I can't dispute that, it doesn't mean I "don't want to admit" something. However, if you allow it's possible that your 2.5 kids per couple and 43 years per generation have a lot of error built in to them, if global human population were constrained to a constant number by the ice ages and whatever other geological/climatic events were going on back then up until about 11,000 years ago as well as other constraints that continue to be present in the world, the numbers would actually come out relatively close. You ignored the fact that the global ecosystem can not support a population of anywhere near a trillion humans, so the exponential projections that you came up with for evolutionary populations starting from 55 million years ago are obviously flawed and do not incorporate serious constraints that would be imposed on your model by anyone using systems of equations. Your model doesn't really prove anything.

By the way, where in the Bible is the timeline showing that the last remaining humans exited the Ark 4300 years ago? I am not trying to zing you with that one, I really just don't know the answer. Also, were all the people on the Ark Israelis? An honest question, which if the answer is yes, begs the question - where did Blacks, Latinos, Indians, Chinese, etc. come from? I'm sure you have a handy answer to that last one.
 
quantumleap

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Stinger. said:
quantum, i never lied, lets not resort to that.. overtime, i will give you many things that you cannot dispute... and quantum im sure somewhere over the last 4300 years there has been population decreases in my time frame to.. good luck with the millions of years thing..

apologies if i offended anyone, really hoping to keep this civil..

First of all you lied when you said your numbers were a little off. There's a big difference between being a little off and being patently wrong. Your quote was "However since 1900 the growth in major quakes has been relentless." You said your numbers were backed by the USGS and I showed you how they were not. That is just outright lying.

I never said anything about millions of years. Don't attribute things to me that I did not say.

I'm sorry but your posts are just not coherent enough to reply to any more.
 
edub69

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Just FYI, the first humans are widely accepted to have existed between 1.6 and 2.2 million years ago, not 55 million. For your future reference.
 

SSI

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ok count from 1.5 to 2 million years.. your figures are still off... and your right, this thread isnt worth it...

Have a nice day, atheists.. and i know that term doesnt offend you, so i wont apologize for it..


So go on believing that life came from nonlife and laws (such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics) did not come from a lawgiver... I could have shared so much..

British writer, John Stuart Mill wrote,, one person with a belief is worth more than 99 with an opinion..
 

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