Rumsfeld facing war crimes charges in Germany

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Rumsfeld facing war crimes case in Germany

BERLIN (Reuters) - Lawyers acting for a U.S. advocacy group will today file war crimes charges in Germany against senior U.S. administration officials for their alleged role in torture at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"German law in this area is leading the world," Peter Weiss, Vice President of the New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights (CCR), a human rights group, was quoted as saying in Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper's Tuesday edition.

According to the group, German law allows war criminals to be investigated wherever they may be living.

Those to be named in the case to be filed at Germany's Federal Prosecutors Office include Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, former Central Intelligence Agency chief George Tenet and eight other officials.

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissi...143&sid=5372618
 

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I stole this article from another forum, and (with the poster's permission) am stealing this response contained within the thread:

___________________________________

I don't see why these laws are "naive" at all. If you espouse particular principles and, indeed, you encode it in your local law, you shouldn't sanction or grant immunity to the citizens of other nations, however powerful they are, if they have violated those principles in some way.

The problem is that governments are forced to operate within the framework where any decision they make with respect to a foreign citizen, especially the powerful, is always percieved as having broader meaning than simple principle. So when politicians do act according to principle, the simple moral statement is subsumed by the perception that some kind of opening shot is being fired in a political, social or economic battle between nations, rather than the simple fact of what it is, namely:

"We would jail our own citizens for what you've done, therefore we cannot condone the citizens of other nations, however powerful, doing it"

By making the law, rather than the commitment of a particular politician, be the agent of a principle or principles it makes it far harder to cloud the issue, which is that a society has aligned itself with a particular set of principles (in this case the Geneva convention) and will not condone violation of those principles, no matter what. At the same time, its harder for the powerful citizens of other nations to huff and puff and turn their personal indictment into an issue of national affront worthy of economic reprisals and so on.

Lastly, by removing the responsibility to do so from politicians - and indeed the ability to change the immediate outcome - the ability of powerful nations to bully other nations into accepting their transgressions is curtailed. Economic and other reprisals are less effective when the politicians can say "Sorry, what can we do? It's our law".

Sure, pressure can be applied to change such laws, but in the process the moral issues at stake are thrust into the spotlight. To vindicate bringing pressure to bear to change such laws the offending state must implicitly criticise the law and what it implies and be drawn into a debate about their motives and values.

If, for instance, the German war crime laws are based on the Geneva convention, debate would naturally focus around whether Rumsfeld is, in fact guilty of war crimes and the issue would receive the attention and learned discussion it merits, in the international public eye.

The US is a signatory to the Geneva convention and many other rights conventions it has consistently violated with impunity. The most damning evidence of its intransigence is its withdrawal from the ICJ (after first submitting to that body's authority then not liking the outcome of one case) and later refusal to ratify the treaty establishing the ICC. Lets not forget that these treaties are laws in every sense of the word. In order to ratify them, member nations must pass them into their own body of law. The Geneva convention, for instance, is actually encoded in US military law.

Politicians that break such laws are actually criminals in their own countries, but a lack of political and judicial will means that their own legal systems fail to prosecute them, leading to the perception that international law exists only in the void between nations, not within nations themselves. I've certainly encountered this misconception over and over again in discussions here.

Many will claim such efforts are futile because of a lack of power to enforce, but thats only because they've been trained to believe that brute force is the only effective weapon in an international war of ideals. Its not and anyone with a bit of worldly wisdom and a real understanding of realpolitik will realise its not.

In a rapidly globalising world economy, perception translates into money and co-operation on many fronts. A nation that is judged and found wanting in the eyes of the world again and again will rapidly decline, unless they're willing to invade the whole world. Even with the US' current strained military capacity, it isn't a patch on the British Empire's capacity for military domination at it's height - and they only managed to rule a quarter of the earth's population for a brief period of time.

So these laws are effective. If people trust their justice system enough to consider most convictions or acquitals a strong measure of their own citizen's guilt, they're equally likely to consider the conviction or acquital of foreign citizens, in absentia or not, strong evidence of guilt or innocence. Certainly they'll trust in the probable truth of learned judges in a legal setting, seriously contemplating the laws (and lets not forget that that's what these treaties are - very carefully worded international laws), far more than they would a newspaper pundit or a politician.

Those beliefs translate into deeds, such as what brands you buy and whether you stand by politicians who pander too much to foreigners you consider criminals.

So far from being naive, such laws are exceedingly enlightened and I hope more nations have the moral fortitude to enact similar laws in future.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->
 

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Powell and all the other resignations are looking to be the right move considering Nuremberg could be just around the corner.....looks like Rummy and his platoon missed the train out.....

Geneva convention?
Isn't that for other countries to adhere to?
I thought the US was exempt and could pretty much do what it wanted. My bad.

They're probably in luck anyway cuz any extradition laws will mirror our adherance to Geneva......
 
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Ghees, too flappin bad ...

This is an event I would really lose sleep over ....

I hope he gets what is due his corrupt ass
 

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Maybe this is irrelevant, but who cares what Germany thinks, says, or does! A few idiots are alleging that a powerful American did something criminal and are filing charges in a foreign country. So what?

The sky is blue and grass is green! So what?

This will give a few media outlets something to discuss or print, and it will allow a few anti-American morons to get their jollies - but what does it mean?

Nothing!
 
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Rumsfeld is a flappin joke ... hated by the military ....

his college roommate??? Ghees, can ya say he is on the board of directors at the Cargyle Company ..

and in honor of bblight, how bout one of them "Kodak" moments???



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD>
rumsfield-saddam.gif

Donald Rumsfeld in Baghdad, December 20, 1983, to sell Saddam Hussein weapons of mass destruction
America's "Frankenstein foreign policy" at work - create enemies and then destroy them - keeping the military-industrial complex well "oiled" (so to speak)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

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Doc - that picture is twenty years old. Maybe Rummy was trying to let Sadaam know that is was ok to go to war with Iran.

Of course I'm sure that you've dug up some conspiracy theory that Rummy is the real culprit behind the fopod for oil scam.
 

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"Maybe this is irrelevant, but who cares what Germany thinks, says, or does!"

Quite relevant. Right now there is plenty of this attitude spread all around the world......USA enters Iraq and says "Who cares what the rest of the world thinks, says, or does!"

Would explain a lot why governments are scrambling to get thier hands on a nuke or two, and why it will be tougher in the future to regulate and control all the fuel and technology necessary to achieve those goals.

Should keep the middle east in its usual state of turmoil for decades to come.

While all the countries engage in the now chic trend of "we will do what we want regardless how it effects you"........add some hair triggers to those nukes just to raise the ante a bit.....after all, who cares what the rest of the world thinks? It's just a little radiation, dude.
 
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bblight:

dont ya love life? Dumbsfeld is kissing Husseins ass ... Cheney said in a 92 interview that taking out Hussein was not worth American lives ...

We lost 2 more kids today ... we have lost over 1200 and spent 300 billion dollars for what???

You seem intelligent ... I guess first observations are incorrect with your asskissing of this administration
 

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xpanda said:
I don't see why these laws are "naive" at all. If you espouse particular principles and, indeed, you encode it in your local law, you shouldn't sanction or grant immunity to the citizens of other nations, however powerful they are, if they have violated those principles in some way.
...
So far from being naive, such laws are exceedingly enlightened and I hope more nations have the moral fortitude to enact similar laws in future.

I think I'm reading this guy's argument right: the Vatican can freely pass an anti-abortion law then prosecute anyone in the world who violates that law...to do so will show enlightment and moral fortitude. Maybe Iran can start arresting foreigners who had pre-marital sex prior to their trip to Iran. Saudi Arabia can arrest those who have tasted alcohol in their own country.

Brilliant...I'm going to write my congressman to see about getting a law passed about the idiot English who drive on the left side of the road. Hang them all!
 

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Shotgun......Reading what you quoted and the next few paragraphs......

Looks simple to me......He's just saying that people, whether citizens of the country or not, should be charged for thier crimes regardless of thier status or affluence, when those crimes are committed in the country where it is illegal.

He's simply saying that if you are driving in England you should drive on the left side of the road or face a possible ticket.

Some states have helmet laws, some don't. When in a state with a helmet law you can wear a helmet or face a possible fine. When in a state that has no helmet law, no problem if you don't wear one.
 

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doc mercer said:
bblight:
You seem intelligent ... I guess first observations are incorrect with your asskissing of this administration
Doc,
Respectfully, I have to disagree here. Blight has never struck me as intelligent. Misguided? Yes.
Intelligent? No.
 

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Marco, if that is what he meant I won't argue with it. I don't think that is what the writer is saying (he has a pretty pathetic way of making his point either way). The way I read it, this fringe group wants to use a German law that granted itself Universal Jurisidiction to go after Rumsfeld for an alleged crime committed thousands of miles from Germany. This nutty writer, who only writes a sentence if he can work a half dozen commas into it, has tried to justify it using some illogical 'logic'.

It doesn't make much sense to me. All one has to do is look at the US group pushing this indictment to see how silly it is.
 

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Shotgun said:
I think I'm reading this guy's argument right: the Vatican can freely pass an anti-abortion law then prosecute anyone in the world who violates that law...to do so will show enlightment and moral fortitude. Maybe Iran can start arresting foreigners who had pre-marital sex prior to their trip to Iran. Saudi Arabia can arrest those who have tasted alcohol in their own country.

Brilliant...I'm going to write my congressman to see about getting a law passed about the idiot English who drive on the left side of the road. Hang them all!
What makes you think the OP wasn't a woman? Hmmm?

I digress.

Decent points. However, I think his point holds a little more weight when the same laws he refers to, the ones showing 'moral fortitude', are espoused and indeed agreed upon by the very nation at which this charge points. Further, these are basic, universally recognised laws of humanity and were used, I might remind you, to prosecute Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg.

I agree that it is a stretch for Germany to actually go ahead and charge Rumsfeld, and of course they won't, but bringing the issue of international law back into the public arena is hardly a bad thing. Unless you're a war criminal, that is. I want to add here that should the upcoming Iraqi government wish to charge Rumsfeld and any other perpetrators of Abu Ghraib with war crimes they would have my blessing. The crimes happened in their jurisdiction after all.

(A group of lawyers in Canada moved to have Bush arrested when he landed on Canadian soil today. According to our laws, anyone who commits crimes against humanity, regardless of where the crime actually occurs, must be arrested upon entry into Canada. Not the same, but there are some interesting parallels, namely, we should look out for one another.)
 
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Bush in handcuffs ...

LONG OVERDUE

Go Canucks! Arrest this prick if ya have the chance ....

God bless Canada ....
 

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We won't arrest him. Nor should we, in my opinion. That would only screw us in the end.

But I would like to see you guys do it. Or the Iraqis.

Is invading a nation who was no imminent threat whatsoever a war crime? I'm not sure on this one ...
 

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xpanda said:
What makes you think the OP wasn't a woman? Hmmm?

He did tend to ramble on a bit...maybe he really was a she.

xpanda said:
Decent points. However, I think his point holds a little more weight when the same laws he refers to, the ones showing 'moral fortitude', are espoused and indeed agreed upon by the very nation at which this charge points. Further, these are basic, universally recognised laws of humanity and were used, I might remind you, to prosecute Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg.

(A group of lawyers in Canada moved to have Bush arrested when he landed on Canadian soil today. According to our laws, anyone who commits crimes against humanity, regardless of where the crime actually occurs, must be arrested upon entry into Canada. Not the same, but there are some interesting parallels, namely, we should look out for one another.)

These lawyers sure are cheapening the phrase 'crimes against humanity'. You may disagree with the invasion of Iraq, but the US had every legal right (based on the 1991 cease-fire) to go into Iraq. Are these lawyers talking about charging Tony Blair for war crimes as well?
 

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Shotgun said:
He did tend to ramble on a bit...maybe he really was a she.
Funny guy. If you're not careful, I'm going to lead you to a gay bar in August. Maybe even leave you there.


These lawyers sure are cheapening the phrase 'crimes against humanity'. You may disagree with the invasion of Iraq, but the US had every legal right (based on the 1991 cease-fire) to go into Iraq. Are these lawyers talking about charging Tony Blair for war crimes as well?
The German story is based on the Abu Ghraib issue, not the invasion itself. The group of lawyers in Canada are pressing for Bush's arrest based on both Abu Ghraib and the invasion itself. Surely dropping bombs on people who were not a threat constitutes a crime against humanity, does it not?
 

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