Question....Should the photos from Abu Ghraib be released???

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919

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I see that no less an imperial personage than the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, has asked a federal judge to block the opening of the Abu Ghraib Film Festival of the Damned:

Myers . . . said in a statement put forth to support the Pentagon's case that he believed that "riots, violence and attacks by insurgents will result" if the images were released. "It is probable that Al Qaeda and other groups will seize upon these images and videos as grist for their propaganda mill, which will result in, besides violent attacks, increased terrorist recruitment, continued financial support and exacerbation of tensions between Iraqi and Afghani populaces and U.S. and coalition forces," he said.

Sheesh. Suddenly everybody's a movie critic. But surely Gen. Myers understands that while shots of helpless little boys being anally raped don't exactly meet local community standards (either here or in Iraq) the Freedom of Information Act doesn't have an obscenity exemption. Or a stupidity exemption, which would have left Myers, not to mention his boss, completely in the clear.

Unfortunately, Myers is having some script problems of his own. In his statement to the court, which I presume was given under oath, he cites Newsweek's Koran-in-the-toilet story as an example of the kind of havoc that the Abu Ghraib kiddie porn could unleash among the natives:

General Myers cited the violence that erupted in some Muslim countries in May after Newsweek published an item, later retracted, saying that a Koran had been thrown in a toilet in the United States detention center in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.​
That is, not, however, what Gen. Myers said at the time:

General Myers also told reporters at the Pentagon Thursday that the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, General Carl Eichenberry, disagrees with the reports that protests in the city of Jalalabad were caused by anger over the alleged Koran incident. "It is the judgment of our commander in Afghanistan, General Eichenberry, that in fact the violence that we saw in Jalalabad was not necessarily the result of the allegations about disrespect for the Koran, but more tied up in the political process and the reconciliation process that President Karzai and his cabinet are conducting in Afghanistan. He thought it was not at all tied to the article in the magazine," he explained. (emphasis added.)

He and Rove both really need to work on their dissembling skills.

Gen. Myers might have been a little more careful if he'd known his words would make the New York Times. But the goverrnment originally filed his statement -- and all the other paperwork associated with its most recent attempt to block the release of the images -- under seal. This in turn forced the ACLU to file its countermotion under seal.

Left unchecked, this procedure would have resulted in secret litigation to decide whether secret videos should be kept secret. Hank Gonzales's idea of the perfect trial, in other words.

But Judge Hellerstein -- whose legal lap this horror show has landed in -- apparently has some old-fashioned ideas about the public's right to know. He unsealed the papers, giving us this chance to see Gen. Myers talk out of both sides of his mouth.

Given what we already know -- thanks to Sy Hersh and others -- about the high command's responsibility for the chain of events that led to Abu Ghraib, Myers' plea for secrecy bears at least a passing resemblance to the old chestnut about the man who murders his parents and then begs the court for mercy because he's an orphan. It would be a little easier to stomach if somebody above the rank of sergeant had been charged with a crime, if the man most directly responsible -- the colonel in charge of the Abu Ghraib intelligence unit -- hadn't been let off with a reprimand, and if the commander at the top on the chain of command in Iraq hadn't been promoted instead of being set to wash toilets in the Aleutian Islands.

Add in the fact that to this day the Pentagon is trying to shield higher ups from being implicated in Abu Ghraib-like abuses, and the temptation is awfully strong to tell Gen. Myers to go do what Dick Cheney told Pat Leahy.

But one of the things that makes this such a particularly depressing story (that is, over and above the sadistic fascism on display at Abu Ghraib) is the fact that to the extent Myers is right, the ones who suffer for it won't be the people who bear the ultimate moral responsibility for the scandal: the lawyers who wrote the Nazi-like memos justifying the presidential power to torture, the bureaucrats who set the policy wheels in motion at Guantanamo, the generals who "Gitmoized" the interrogation process in Iraq, and the sleazy partisan scumbags, like "neutron" Jim Schlesinger, who put the finishing touches on the cover up.

If release of the Abu Ghraib snuff movies does trigger a violent reaction in Iraq or Afghanistan, if it does lengthen the lines at the Al Qaeda recruitment office, or if it does inspire insurgent bomb makers to invent even more lethal IEDs, the ones who'll pay the price will be the troops in the field -- the same poor bastards who are already spilling their blood for the Pentagon's failures.

Would the Film Festival of the Damned have that kind of effect? I don't know -- and I don't think there's any way to know until and unless the videos are released. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, just because Myers is a lying fuck desperate to cover his own ass. When I try to imagine the reaction of someone who already hates or fears American power to graphic footage of little Iraqi children being raped while a bunch of smirking hillbillies stand around and gawk, I can see how it might drive them crazy with rage -- just as the sight of the burned corpses of American mercenaries being dragged through the streets of Fallujah worked a lot of our wing nuts into a frenzy last year. And if there's one thing this tortured planet doesn't need right now, it's the crazed rage of cultural fanatics. We've already got more than we can handle.

Which is why I'm glad I don't have Judge Hellerstein's job. The law would seem to leave him little choice but to release the tapes, and pray the consequences -- for the guiltless, I mean -- aren't as dire as Myers predicts.

In the end, though, I also have to support full disclosure -- not just because it's the law, but because it's also the right thing to do, despite the risks. There's a greater danger here than the threat that the violence in Iraq or Afghanistan might temporarily escalate (would anybody even notice?) It's the risk that some future administration, or future army commander, might be encouraged to endorse -- or cover up -- war crimes, on the expectation that they, too, will be able to rely on official secrecy to protect themselves (and the country) from the consequences. Which may embolden still more distant bureaucrats and soldiers to commit even bigger war crimes.

We already know where that road ends. But neither the judicial nor the political system seem prepared to hold the administration and the Pentagon accountable for having started us down it. That leaves the court of public opinion -- which, unfortunately, is also inclined to imitate Sgt. Shultz.

What I'm hoping is that seeing the horror of Abu Ghraib captured on tape -- even if it is filtered through the corporate media nannies -- might at least have the same effect on American public opinion that the recent airing of a video from the Bosnian killing fields had on Serbia's willful amnesia about it's own war crimes. The tape didn't lead to some dramatic awakening of conscience, but it at least made denial more difficult. It also forced the government to do something about it:

Ms. Kandic, director of the Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade, a rights advocacy group, said, "Until now the prime minister and others were afraid to touch the issue of war crimes. "The tape has changed the strategy of the state," she said in a telephone interview. "For the first time politicians were forced publicly to react."

Of course, I may be both too optimistic and too pessimistic. After a year of media exposure, Abu Ghraib may simply have lost its power to shock at home and abroad -- no matter how graphic the images.

But if Judge Hellerstein opts for disclosure, I might at least have the satisifaction of hearing Rush Limbaugh try to explain how raping little boys is really not that much different than your average frat house initiation ritual.

Posted by billmon at 12:39 AM
 
TheRightWing

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Sure if you want the NY Times to have a story of propaganda smeared in our troops face.
 
Coldweather

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They serve no useful purpose. It upsets Muslims and places our military in imminent danger. They will also be used to embarrass our great President George W. Bush.

Most importantly though, it makes us look like wimps, the way we cow taw to the terrorist every whim. We should use every program we have, especially tourture, to get all the information we can from these terrorist. If they don't cooperate we should just shoot them. Just an opinion! A strong one at that!

:suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi: :suomi:
 

919

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The Right Wing said:
Sure if you want the NY Times to have a story of propaganda smeared in our troops face.

can you explain how the ny times will have a story of propoganda smeared in our troops face?
 
koidog

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No, I see no purpose.
 
eek.

eek.

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The pictures are war propaganda and shouldn't be released any moreso than the Germans releasing pictures of those happenings in Belsen during WW2.

Those officers responsible deserve a good kicking.
They succumed to pressure from somewhere, the State Department? The CIA? and then they let this crap happen and they stood there and they let it happen.
Not ONE of those guys in authority had a nutsack big enough to say no.

The reason they're not being touched is because ultimate responsibility resides upstairs, probaly at White House level, and they'll squeal like fat little piggies if anyone tries to make an example of them.

Lions led by Donkeys and spineless cowards.

----------------------------------
It would be a little easier to stomach if somebody above the rank of sergeant had been charged with a crime, if the man most directly responsible -- the colonel in charge of the Abu Ghraib intelligence unit -- hadn't been let off with a reprimand, and if the commander at the top on the chain of command in Iraq hadn't been promoted instead of being set to wash toilets in the Aleutian Islands.
 

919

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koidog said:
No, I see no purpose.

i guess giving people the truth would be one purpose...

and then there is this...

"There's a greater danger here than the threat that the violence in Iraq or Afghanistan might temporarily escalate (would anybody even notice?) It's the risk that some future administration, or future army commander, might be encouraged to endorse -- or cover up -- war crimes, on the expectation that they, too, will be able to rely on official secrecy to protect themselves (and the country) from the consequences. Which may embolden still more distant bureaucrats and soldiers to commit even bigger war crimes."

i'm just curious where people stand and why....i sure as hell don't want our troops or our country for that matter receiving the backlash that these pictures would most likely cause....with that said, since many of the incidents have already been described, i assume terrorists already use it as ammo against america....
 
eek.

eek.

bushman
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Thats why Hitler got so far and inflicted so much brutality.
People didn't say no. They just obeyed orders and turned a blind eye.

Abu-G is no different.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
 
JinnRikki

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I'm sure those pics will inflame muslims more than they are now :icon_conf or not.
What they will inflame are some fence sitters in the good 'ol USofA. Some of these these good folks that just can't maker up their minds about how much of the Lord is in Dubya. I think seeing a young boy under our boot being raped might make a few of them wonder.
That's why they won't see the light of day.
 
koidog

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eek. said:
Thats why Hitler got so far and inflicted so much brutality.
People didn't say no. They just obeyed orders and turned a blind eye.

Abu-G is no different.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

Sure it's different, they weren't "following orders"

No one is denying what happened, and the people responsible have been punished or will be. Releasing the photos would not serve any purpose.
 
koidog

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919 said:
i guess giving people the truth would be one purpose...

and then there is this...

"There's a greater danger here than the threat that the violence in Iraq or Afghanistan might temporarily escalate (would anybody even notice?) It's the risk that some future administration, or future army commander, might be encouraged to endorse -- or cover up -- war crimes, on the expectation that they, too, will be able to rely on official secrecy to protect themselves (and the country) from the consequences. Which may embolden still more distant bureaucrats and soldiers to commit even bigger war crimes."

i'm just curious where people stand and why....i sure as hell don't want our troops or our country for that matter receiving the backlash that these pictures would most likely cause....with that said, since many of the incidents have already been described, i assume terrorists already use it as ammo against america....

What truth?
 
eek.

eek.

bushman
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koidog said:
Sure it's different, they weren't "following orders"
No one is denying what happened, and the people responsible have
been punished or will be.

The muppets at the bottom have been punished.
Those who are responsible have not.

Even the total idiot in charge of the place only got a reprimand.
Why?
Because the stuff going on in that place was policy and unless he was going to show some guts and stand up and be counted he had to duck the issue and let it go.

Using your own logic, Hitler was innocent because he didn't know what was going on.
Punish those who did the nasty stuff, but the dude in charge can just say that he didn't know what they were doing and it was during World War 2 and it was a really really confusing period.
 
eek.

eek.

bushman
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The whole thing stinks.

Gen Karpinski did get demoted but they couldn't prosecute her because she was only a part of a chain of command authorising torture.

If she'd been court martialled the publicity would have been a nightmare for the US army and US Government.

-------------------------------------------------



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=629 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=3>Israeli interrogators 'in Iraq'




</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=416><!-- S BO --><!-- S IIMA --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=203 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>
_40193599_karpinski_rums_ap203body.jpg
Members of Karpinski's (l) brigade have been accused of abuse



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->The US officer at the heart of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal says she has evidence that Israelis helped to interrogate Iraqis at another facility.


Brig Gen Janis Karpinski told the BBC she met an Israeli working as an interrogator at a secret intelligence centre in Baghdad.

A BBC reporter says it is the first time a senior US officer has suggested Israelis worked with the coalition.

The Israeli foreign ministry said the reports were completely untrue.

Intelligence access

Gen Karpinski was in charge of the military police unit that ran Abu Ghraib and other prisons when the abuses were committed. She has been suspended but not charged.

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme she met a man claiming to be Israeli during a visit to an intelligence centre with a senior coalition general.

"I saw an individual there that I hadn't had the opportunity to meet before, and I asked him what did he do there, was he an interpreter - he was clearly from the Middle East," she said in the interview.

"He said, 'Well, I do some of the interrogation here. I speak Arabic but I'm not an Arab; I'm from Israel.'"

<!-- S IIMA --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=203 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>
_40274181_hooded_ap203i.jpg
Images of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison sparked global outrage



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA -->Until a 1999 ruling by the Israeli Supreme Court, Israeli secret service interrogators were allowed to use "moderate force".

The US journalist who broke the Abu Ghraib scandal told the programme his sources confirm the presence of Israeli intelligence agents in Iraq.

Seymour Hersh said that one of the Israeli aims was to gain access to detained members of the Iraqi secret intelligence unit, who reportedly specialise in Israeli affairs.

'Convenient scapegoat'

The BBC reporter, Matthew Grant, says that whatever the truth, these allegations could cause anger in the Arab world.



Photographs of naked Iraqi detainees being humiliated and maltreated first started to surface in April, sparking shock and anger across the world.

One soldier has been sentenced and six others are awaiting courts martial for abuses committed at Abu Ghraib jail.

Gen Karpinski has said she was being made a "convenient scapegoat" for abuse ordered by others.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3863235.stm

<!-- E BO -->




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
eek.

eek.

bushman
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JinnRikki said:
What they will inflame are some fence sitters in the good
'ol USofA. Some of these these good folks that just can't maker up their
minds about how much of the Lord is in Dubya. I think seeing a young boy
under our boot being raped might make a few of them wonder.
That's why they won't see the light of day.

Good US specific point.

Who in America would think that God is on the same side as people who bugger boys being held in custody ?
 
koidog

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eek. said:
The muppets at the bottom have been punished.
Those who are responsible have not.

Even the total idiot in charge of the place only got a reprimand.
Why?
Because the stuff going on in that place was policy and unless he was going to show some guts and stand up and be counted he had to duck the issue and let it go.

Using your own logic, Hitler was innocent because he didn't know what was going on.
Punish those who did the nasty stuff, but the dude in charge can just say that he didn't know what they were doing and it was during World War 2 and it was a really really confusing period.

No Hitler ran on his hatred of Jews and directly ordered the Final Solution.

According to a lot of you guys Bush can't even spell Abu Ghraib yet he's directly responsible now?

Besides Eek you know your History, this is MILD compared to what happened in WW II.
 
JudgeWapner

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Who exactly is responsible?
 
koidog

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The people that did it and the person directly in Charge of them.

However, are we gonna rehash that? The question in the thread is should the Photos be released.

Regardless on How any of of feel about Bush or the war, releasing the Photos would be terrible for our Soldiers, so it makes no sense to release them.
 

docmercer

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First off, the muslim world is filled with photoshop fakes of US soldiers doing all kinds of things (rape etc) -- so more pictures are going to be what -- the final straw? They'll bump their hate from 10 to 11? (a la spinal tap)

The fact is that when there was first talk of abuse at these prisons - it was blown off as rumor and "bashing by those who hate the military". Its very sad, but I don't trust those in charge to do anything about this kind of garbage if they were left in charge of these photos. We've seen the coverups in the past, unfortunately the military (just like the medical community, the police in some communities and others) have to be "caught on tape" and shamed into admitting that the odd time rogue members act out of line.

As far as punishment - it's amazing how the rats in charge left the folks on ground level take 100% of the fall for this.
 
docmercer--banned

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Coldweathter: you are an embarrassement!

'They will also be used to embarrass our great President George W. Bush"




 

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