http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=259629
Pacific Poker is silently emptying idle accounts
<hr style="color: rgb(190, 190, 190); background-color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Cliff notes: Warning to other customers: Pacific Poker silently charges administration fee of $3,361.80 from my $5,603 balance. Seeking advice on getting funds returned.
This february I logged into my account at Pacific Poker for the first time in little over a year. When I logged off in January 2007, my balance was $5,603. When I returned, the balance was $2,241.
I emailed customer support to ask where my money went. They explained that after 6 months of inactivity, they remove 10% of the original balance every month. They do this until either I start using the account, or the balance reaches zero after 10 months, at which point they will close the account.
They call this an administration fee for dormant accounts. In my case, this fee amounted to $3,361.80. In four more months, my balance would have reached zero.
At no point during this time did I receive any information from Pacific Poker that money was being removed from my account. (I did, however receive numerous email reminders for various promotions during the same period.)
Customer support refers to a clause in their user agreement. And sure enough, a couple of pages into the fine print, this "administration fee" is described. This agreement is subject to change, and even though I cannot recall this clause specifically, it may very well have been part of the agreement when I signed up some years back. I had only heard good things about Pacific and 888 at that point, and never suspected I had to fear this kind of setup from a leading actor in the industry.
I emailed them back twice demanding a refund, arguing that this fee is completely unreasonable, and without any rational justification. They just sent me more emails referring to the user agreement, and are basically saying this is all very unfortunate, but tough luck, we're definitely keeping the monies, thanks for your patience and understanding, we're here for you 24/7, please play our Sunday $80,000 Guaranteed tournament, etc. I have requested that a supervisor looks at my request, but have been turned down.
At that point I more or less gave up. However, I did promise Pacific I'd warn other players about this setup, so today I'm finally posting my story. Please fellow players, let Pacific poker know what you think about this practice. Is this even legal? Any suggestions on how I should proceed to get a refund?
Also, if you think this is unfair, please write an email saying so to support@pacificpoker.com. The name of my account there is "bawanga".
Most importantly however: if you have an account at Pacific Poker or know someone that does, make sure the funds are safe!
Below I have included the correspondance with Pacific Poker Support. (Names x-ed out, line breaks removed for readability)
Thanks,
Oystein
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: support@pacificpoker.com,
date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 7:15 PM
subject: current balance incorrect
Hi,
I haven't played since january 2007, but logged in to my account today (username: bawanga). I had $5,603 in my account in jan 2007, when I logged in today, current balance was $2,241.
Cash out history shows nothing for 2007, and I cannot see any hand histories at all. Please get back to me as soon as possible.
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:01 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.
Oystein, in the case you fail to use your account for six months, your account is then considered a "dormant account".
The six-month period runs from the date of your last login to your account.
In the case of a dormant account, the Company charges a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account, on the date that it became dormant.
The administration fee is being deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive, and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero.
In the event that you log into your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is charged, the Company cease to charge the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.
This information is very explicitly stated on our Site User Agreement, to which you agreed when you ticked the "I agree to the Terms & Conditions" box at the bottom of your account registration page.
I hope this clarifies this matter, and thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us - we are here for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
www.888.com
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)
Hi again,
thank you for the quick response.
I find the 10% per month fee to be completely unreasonable and surely out of proportion with any actual costs you may have in keeping my account alive. However, what I really find hard to believe is that you did not give me some sort of warning before taking money from my account. I am sure you agree that this is important information to me. As it is your policy to inform me by e-mail about various promotions and other issues you deem interesting to me, I cannot see any valid reasons not to remind me that all funds will be removed from my account in the next ten months.
As a leading actor in the online gaming industry, I am confident that it is not your business strategy to make your profit by silently emptying customer accounts. User agreement or not, such a practice would be considered outrageous by the various player communities and organizations.
Due to personal reasons I have not been able to play for the last year or so, but this week I was looking forward to picking up where I left off. I really hope this issue can be resolved, and that my money will be returned to my account as soon as possible.
Thanks,
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 5:59 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.com
Unfortunately, Oystein, with regards to the fees deducted, it is very clearly stated in the Users Agreement :>
7.1v. Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.
and which you agreed too, even though it is most unfortunate, there is not much that can be done.
The agreement is there for all our members to read and if agreed too, the policy stands.
Therefore, Oystein, please bear this in mind for future reference.
In addition, if you haven't already done so, why not register an account with our very own forums http://forums.888.com?
A community of casino and poker players, a place where you can share your views, opinions, seek advice and discuss the hot topics of the moment.
Not only that! As a forum member, you will also be eligible to enter exciting tournaments exclusive to 888.com Forum members.
Have a look and see! If you like the games, then you'll love the forum!
Visit http://forums.888.com NOW!
I do apologize for the inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience and understanding in this matter. If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us ? we are here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
************************************************** ********************
Win your share of at least $80,000 each Sunday in our $80,000 Guaranteed!
Play your way for free from a Freeroll, for just 60¢ from a Satellite or buy-in direct for only $120 + $12.
Register for an $80,000 Guaranteed tournament under the ?Tournaments? tab now!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 6:19 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)
Please refer this matter to a supervisor's attention.
There is no rational justification for a fee, much less an outrageous 10% per month of the original balance. I defy you to even attempt to offer a rationale that justifies this fee. It costs near nothing to have a dormant account. Quite the contrary, you earn interest off this money.
While the user agreement does have this clause buried in the fine print, your actions are essentially a theft. You stole more than half my account. That you did this without sending a single email reminder just makes it clear exactly what your intentions were.
A theft is exactly how it will be viewed by the online poker community. Poker players want to feel their online money is secure before they play a site. We worry about hackers, super-users, collusion, and now it appears we must worry about the site itself just stealing our money. It doesn't take much for someone to avoid playing on a site these days. Threads in forums of this nature can be extremely damaging to a site's reputation and business. I won't even have to say anything really, I can just post the emails you've sent me.
The clause in the user agreement is absurd. Choosing to enforce it is simply a bad business decision.
If you fail to return my money, I am going to close my account. My friends are going to close their accounts. I am going to post these emails in every poker forum available. Look for them on twoplustwo, pocketfives, cardrunners, and even your 888 forums (thanks for the suggestion.) I cannot believe that this bad press and ill will is worth the mere $3400 you've taken from my account.
My suggestion to you is to return my money. I will regard it merely as an unfortunate run in with a bad policy that will hopefully be changed, or in the least not enforced in the future. Your customers trust you. You need that trust to stay in business. If you think that trust will last as you claim the balance of their accounts as your own with outlandish fees hidden in fine print of user agreements, you are deeply mistaken.
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM
subject: Re: [R] Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27977884I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.com
Please be advised this is not a matter for a Supervisor to be involved. As I am a support representative this matter could be handled by my authority as in your case, the 10% per month deduction is posted under the " User Agreement Number 7 section (iV) that you agreed too when you became a member at 888.com which states the following and I quote:
- "Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time".
These terms of use are a part of the companies policy and by no means hidden from the public. Unfortunately the funds cannot be refunded.
Please be guided accordingly.
For an efficient operation and to provide better service to our members, we have to ensure that our policies are followed in detail. I am sorry but we cannot make exceptions for individual members.
Kind regards,
Xxxx.X
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Pacific Poker is silently emptying idle accounts
<hr style="color: rgb(190, 190, 190); background-color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Cliff notes: Warning to other customers: Pacific Poker silently charges administration fee of $3,361.80 from my $5,603 balance. Seeking advice on getting funds returned.
This february I logged into my account at Pacific Poker for the first time in little over a year. When I logged off in January 2007, my balance was $5,603. When I returned, the balance was $2,241.
I emailed customer support to ask where my money went. They explained that after 6 months of inactivity, they remove 10% of the original balance every month. They do this until either I start using the account, or the balance reaches zero after 10 months, at which point they will close the account.
They call this an administration fee for dormant accounts. In my case, this fee amounted to $3,361.80. In four more months, my balance would have reached zero.
At no point during this time did I receive any information from Pacific Poker that money was being removed from my account. (I did, however receive numerous email reminders for various promotions during the same period.)
Customer support refers to a clause in their user agreement. And sure enough, a couple of pages into the fine print, this "administration fee" is described. This agreement is subject to change, and even though I cannot recall this clause specifically, it may very well have been part of the agreement when I signed up some years back. I had only heard good things about Pacific and 888 at that point, and never suspected I had to fear this kind of setup from a leading actor in the industry.
I emailed them back twice demanding a refund, arguing that this fee is completely unreasonable, and without any rational justification. They just sent me more emails referring to the user agreement, and are basically saying this is all very unfortunate, but tough luck, we're definitely keeping the monies, thanks for your patience and understanding, we're here for you 24/7, please play our Sunday $80,000 Guaranteed tournament, etc. I have requested that a supervisor looks at my request, but have been turned down.
At that point I more or less gave up. However, I did promise Pacific I'd warn other players about this setup, so today I'm finally posting my story. Please fellow players, let Pacific poker know what you think about this practice. Is this even legal? Any suggestions on how I should proceed to get a refund?
Also, if you think this is unfair, please write an email saying so to support@pacificpoker.com. The name of my account there is "bawanga".
Most importantly however: if you have an account at Pacific Poker or know someone that does, make sure the funds are safe!
Below I have included the correspondance with Pacific Poker Support. (Names x-ed out, line breaks removed for readability)
Thanks,
Oystein
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: support@pacificpoker.com,
date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 7:15 PM
subject: current balance incorrect
Hi,
I haven't played since january 2007, but logged in to my account today (username: bawanga). I had $5,603 in my account in jan 2007, when I logged in today, current balance was $2,241.
Cash out history shows nothing for 2007, and I cannot see any hand histories at all. Please get back to me as soon as possible.
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:01 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.
Oystein, in the case you fail to use your account for six months, your account is then considered a "dormant account".
The six-month period runs from the date of your last login to your account.
In the case of a dormant account, the Company charges a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account, on the date that it became dormant.
The administration fee is being deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive, and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero.
In the event that you log into your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is charged, the Company cease to charge the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.
This information is very explicitly stated on our Site User Agreement, to which you agreed when you ticked the "I agree to the Terms & Conditions" box at the bottom of your account registration page.
I hope this clarifies this matter, and thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us - we are here for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
www.888.com
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 8:52 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27959121I2229L0KM)
Hi again,
thank you for the quick response.
I find the 10% per month fee to be completely unreasonable and surely out of proportion with any actual costs you may have in keeping my account alive. However, what I really find hard to believe is that you did not give me some sort of warning before taking money from my account. I am sure you agree that this is important information to me. As it is your policy to inform me by e-mail about various promotions and other issues you deem interesting to me, I cannot see any valid reasons not to remind me that all funds will be removed from my account in the next ten months.
As a leading actor in the online gaming industry, I am confident that it is not your business strategy to make your profit by silently emptying customer accounts. User agreement or not, such a practice would be considered outrageous by the various player communities and organizations.
Due to personal reasons I have not been able to play for the last year or so, but this week I was looking forward to picking up where I left off. I really hope this issue can be resolved, and that my money will be returned to my account as soon as possible.
Thanks,
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 5:59 AM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.com
Unfortunately, Oystein, with regards to the fees deducted, it is very clearly stated in the Users Agreement :>
7.1v. Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time.
and which you agreed too, even though it is most unfortunate, there is not much that can be done.
The agreement is there for all our members to read and if agreed too, the policy stands.
Therefore, Oystein, please bear this in mind for future reference.
In addition, if you haven't already done so, why not register an account with our very own forums http://forums.888.com?
A community of casino and poker players, a place where you can share your views, opinions, seek advice and discuss the hot topics of the moment.
Not only that! As a forum member, you will also be eligible to enter exciting tournaments exclusive to 888.com Forum members.
Have a look and see! If you like the games, then you'll love the forum!
Visit http://forums.888.com NOW!
I do apologize for the inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience and understanding in this matter. If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please feel free to contact us ? we are here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Kind regards,
Xxxx X.
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
************************************************** ********************
Win your share of at least $80,000 each Sunday in our $80,000 Guaranteed!
Play your way for free from a Freeroll, for just 60¢ from a Satellite or buy-in direct for only $120 + $12.
Register for an $80,000 Guaranteed tournament under the ?Tournaments? tab now!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>
to: "Pacific Poker (Support)" <support@pacificpoker.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 6:19 PM
subject: Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27969070I2229L0KM)
Please refer this matter to a supervisor's attention.
There is no rational justification for a fee, much less an outrageous 10% per month of the original balance. I defy you to even attempt to offer a rationale that justifies this fee. It costs near nothing to have a dormant account. Quite the contrary, you earn interest off this money.
While the user agreement does have this clause buried in the fine print, your actions are essentially a theft. You stole more than half my account. That you did this without sending a single email reminder just makes it clear exactly what your intentions were.
A theft is exactly how it will be viewed by the online poker community. Poker players want to feel their online money is secure before they play a site. We worry about hackers, super-users, collusion, and now it appears we must worry about the site itself just stealing our money. It doesn't take much for someone to avoid playing on a site these days. Threads in forums of this nature can be extremely damaging to a site's reputation and business. I won't even have to say anything really, I can just post the emails you've sent me.
The clause in the user agreement is absurd. Choosing to enforce it is simply a bad business decision.
If you fail to return my money, I am going to close my account. My friends are going to close their accounts. I am going to post these emails in every poker forum available. Look for them on twoplustwo, pocketfives, cardrunners, and even your 888 forums (thanks for the suggestion.) I cannot believe that this bad press and ill will is worth the mere $3400 you've taken from my account.
My suggestion to you is to return my money. I will regard it merely as an unfortunate run in with a bad policy that will hopefully be changed, or in the least not enforced in the future. Your customers trust you. You need that trust to stay in business. If you think that trust will last as you claim the balance of their accounts as your own with outlandish fees hidden in fine print of user agreements, you are deeply mistaken.
- Øystein Xxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Pacific Poker (Support) <support@pacificpoker.com>
to: Øystein Xxxx <oystein.xxxx@gmail.com>,
date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM
subject: Re: [R] Re: [R] current balance incorrect (KMM27977884I2229L0KM)
Dear Oystein,
Thank you for contacting 888.com
Please be advised this is not a matter for a Supervisor to be involved. As I am a support representative this matter could be handled by my authority as in your case, the 10% per month deduction is posted under the " User Agreement Number 7 section (iV) that you agreed too when you became a member at 888.com which states the following and I quote:
- "Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and occurring on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero . In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies deducted from the account at such time".
These terms of use are a part of the companies policy and by no means hidden from the public. Unfortunately the funds cannot be refunded.
Please be guided accordingly.
For an efficient operation and to provide better service to our members, we have to ensure that our policies are followed in detail. I am sorry but we cannot make exceptions for individual members.
Kind regards,
Xxxx.X
Member Support Representative
support@pacificpoker.com
www.888.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
