On Iraq: Non-Interventionist Told you so

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<header class="mainheading" style="border-width: 0px 0px 2px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(217, 217, 217); margin: 10px 0px 20px; padding: 0px; font-size: 16px; position: relative;"><hgroup style="border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">On Iraq, Non-Interventionists Told You So

And they don't like having to tell you

</hgroup>Sheldon Richman | June 19, 2014


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</header>Contrary to popular belief, there is no satisfaction in being able to say, "I told you so." This is especially so with Iraq, where recent events are enough to sicken one's stomach. Yet it still must be said: those who opposed the George W. Bush administration's invasion of Iraq in March 2003 — not to mention his father's war on Iraq in 1991 and the sanctions enforced through the administration of Bill Clinton — were right.

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</section></aside></section>The noninterventionists predicted a violent unraveling of the country, and that's what we're witnessing. They agreed with Amr Moussa, chairman of the Arab League, who warned in September 2002 that the invasion would "open the gates of hell." There was no Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) or al-Qaeda in Saddam Hussein's Iraq before the U.S. invasion.

Once again, the establishment news media have ill-served the American public. In the buildup to the 2003 bipartisan war on Iraq — which was justified through lies about weapons of mass destruction and complicity in the 9/11 attacks — little time and ink were devoted to the principled opponents of intervention.
Maybe war builds circulation, ratings, and advertising revenues. Or maybe corporate news outlets fear losing access to high-ranking government officials. Whatever the explanation, far more media resources went toward hyping the illegal aggressive war than toward the case against it.
No one can grasp the complexity of one's own society, we noninterventionists said, much less a society with Iraq's unique religious, sectarian, and political culture and history. Intervention grows out of hubris. Non-intervention accepts the limits of any ruling cadre's knowledge. The war planners had no clue how to reform Iraqi society. But there was one thing they did know: they would not suffer the consequences of their arrogance.

You'd think that with the noninterventionists proven right, the media would learn from their folly and turn to them to analyze the current turmoil in Iraq. But you'd be mistaken.

With few exceptions, the go-to "authorities" are the same people who got it wrong — not all of them neoconservatives, because interventionists come in different stripes. The discussion today is almost exclusively over how the Obama administration should intervene in Iraq, not if it should intervene. Even Paul Wolfowitz, one of the wizards of the original invasion, gets face time on major networks. He was part of the crowd which said that American invaders would be greeted with rose petals, that regime change in Iraq would spread liberal democracy throughout the Middle East, and that even peace between the Israelis and Palestinians would take place.

These "authorities" were wrong about everything — assuming they believed their own words — but that seems not to matter.

They have their own story, of course. It's not the 2003 invasion that has brought Iraq to disintegration, they say. It is Barack Obama's failure to leave U.S. troops in Iraq after 2011. This argument doesn't work.

First, Obama (wrongly) asked Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to allow troops to remain beyond the deadline negotiated by Bush, but al-Maliki insisted that U.S. personnel who commit crimes be subject to Iraqi law, a reasonable demand. Obama would not accept that.

Second, why should we believe the advocates of the original invasion when they say a residual U.S. force could have prevented the offensive now conducted by ISIS? It's far more likely that if American troops were in Iraq today, they would be killing and dying.
Al-Maliki is everyone's favorite scapegoat now, and the ruler known as the Shi'ite Saddam certainly is a villain. He has arrested respected Sunni figures and ordered troops to shoot peaceful Sunni demonstrators. But recriminations against the Sunnis, who were identified with Saddam's secular Ba'athist party, started with the American administration of Iraq.

U.S. intervention now would be perceived as taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's sectarian war. (Obama is intervening, though on the opposite side, in Syria, which helped build ISIS.) The conflict is complicated — not all Sunnis and Shiites want sectarian violence — but that's all the more reason to think that neither American troops nor diplomats can repair Iraq. The Iraqi people themselves will have to work things out. As for terrorism, it is U.S. intervention that makes Americans targets.
This article originally appeared at the Future of Freedom Foundation.



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Glenn Beck admits: Liberals got Iraq right
By: Kendall Breitman
June 18, 2014 06:57 AM EDT

Glenn Beck is admitting he was wrong and liberals were right for opposing the invasion of Iraq.
“[Liberals] said we couldn’t force freedom on people,” Beck said at the start of his Tuesday radio show. “Let me lead with my mistakes. You were right. Liberals, you were right, we shouldn’t have.”
Beck’s comments came as he discussed the increasingly partisan divide in politics, saying, “We were a mess in 2008. … It hasn’t gotten any better.” The radio personality explained his feelings that in the past five years the country has been “ripped apart.” To fix this divide, Beck called on the American people to come together on some issues, such as the VA scandal and Iraq.
“From the beginning, most people on the left were against going to Iraq,” Beck said. “I wasn’t.”
The talk show host explained that when a possible invasion of Iraq was being discussed, he believed Saddam Hussein was backing terror against the United States and that something had to be done.
“In spite of the things I felt at the time when we went into war, liberals said, ‘We shouldn’t get involved, we shouldn’t nation-build’ and [that] there was no indication the people of Iraq had the will to be free,” Beck said. “I thought that was insulting at the time. Everybody wants to be free.”
On Tuesday, Beck said, “You cannot force democracy on the Iraqis or anybody else, it doesn’t work. They don’t understand it or even really want it.”
 

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Articles such as this (the are the equivalent of shouting "gotcha!") don't really advance any conversation.

For example, the US had a stated policy that Saddam had WMD, and was working to get a nuclear capability and would provide such capabilities to terrorists, therefore regime change was necessary, when 9/11 took place. Additionally, the US was spending ~$3 billion per year (tying up ~2,000 personnel, 4 navy ships and 100 aircraft) enforcing a no-fly zone. Was that supposed to go on in perpetuity?

Was the President supposed to pretend that the US position on Saddam was invalid? What specifically, would these "non interventionists" have done?

We never get answers. Just "see it is a mess!!"

Which isn't at all persuasive.
 

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Articles such as this (the are the equivalent of shouting "gotcha!") don't really advance any conversation.

For example, the US had a stated policy that Saddam had WMD, and was working to get a nuclear capability and would provide such capabilities to terrorists, therefore regime change was necessary, when 9/11 took place. Additionally, the US was spending ~$3 billion per year (tying up ~2,000 personnel, 4 navy ships and 100 aircraft) enforcing a no-fly zone. Was that supposed to go on in perpetuity?

Was the President supposed to pretend that the US position on Saddam was invalid? What specifically, would these "non interventionists" have done?

We never get answers. Just "see it is a mess!!"

Which isn't at all persuasive.

The revisionists and second GUESSERS have very, VERY short and selective memories.

OCT. 1994:

To strengthen its forces, President Clinton ordered the American aircraft carrier George Washington from the Adriatic to the Red Sea, which would put its planes within striking distance of Iraq. An Aegis cruiser, which is equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles, is also being deployed to the Red Sea. Pentagon officials said it would take four or five days for the ships to get there.

The Pentagon also ordered a Marine amphibious group to leave the United Arab Emirates and steam to the northern Gulf. An Aegis cruiser and a destroyer, each equipped with cruise missiles, are already on routine patrol in the Persian Gulf.

One of the most important steps the Pentagon took was to order maritime prepositioning ships, huge floating warehouses based at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, to set sail for the Gulf. The ships contain tanks, vehicles and war materiel for a force of 16,500 Marines, including 5,000 fighting men.

In addition, the Pentagon is sending ships with Army equipment from Diego Garcia, perhaps enough to equip a brigade of 6,000 troops. The Army has already stored enough equipment in Kuwait for a brigade.

A senior Pentagon official said that American troops, whose number he put at less than 20,000, had been alerted for possible deployment to the gulf. They would be flown in to link up with the equipment now en route.

The United States has also stepped up reconnaissance flights. Washington still has about 70 planes on the Arabian peninsula, which have been enforcing the no-flight zone in southern Iraq.

Ms. Albright told a closed meeting of the Security Council, that if Iraqi forces continued to stream south, Iraq would have a total force of 60,000 to strike Kuwait. The force would be equipped with 700 tanks and 900 armored personnel carriers.

The American force being sent is substantial, but still a far cry from the allied force of more than 500,000 that defeated Iraq in the Persian Gulf war in 1991.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/08/world/us-sends-force-as-iraqi-soldiers-threaten-kuwait.html
 

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^ Yes, not only did we have a permanent force committed to enforcing the no fly zone (24/7/365) but we had to ramp up and down when Saddam got his panties in a bunch.

great policy.
 

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This is a really simplistic, infantile opinion piece. I'm pretty sure I could destroy it sentence by sentence in 30 minutes of effort. And then all the people here who agree with me would still agree with me. And all who don't still wouldn't. So instead I'll make this post in one minute and watch an episode of The Three Stooges on AMC with the other 29. A-Wub-Wub-Wub, Wububububububbub.
 

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This is a really simplistic, infantile opinion piece. I'm pretty sure I could destroy it sentence by sentence in 30 minutes of effort. And then all the people here who agree with me would still agree with me. And all who don't still wouldn't. So instead I'll make this post in one minute and watch an episode of The Three Stooges on AMC with the other 29. A-Wub-Wub-Wub, Wububububububbub.
I was going to offer a long winded diatribe but much like you I said to myself, fuck it, what can I say that I haven’t already said 100 times.
 

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This is a really simplistic, infantile opinion piece. I'm pretty sure I could destroy it sentence by sentence in 30 minutes of effort. And then all the people here who agree with me would still agree with me. And all who don't still wouldn't. So instead I'll make this post in one minute and watch an episode of The Three Stooges on AMC with the other 29. A-Wub-Wub-Wub, Wububububububbub.

When using insulting words like "infantile" or "wub-wub-wub" yeah it's hard to change minds, people tend to stop listening when they get insulted, which is a problem with the majority of posters here, on both sides. But not usually you Scott I know you've changed my mind in the past. You're actually the one that changed my mind on zionism some years ago, which I used to be against, and now have no problem with. I came to the conclusion that the anti-zionism movement in the libertarian party were for the most part, a bunch of chicken hawk fascist posing. Most of them have been ousted. I have quite a few libertarian friends from Israel that are Zionist now.

Changing of minds does happen, just look at the GOP. Many have come around to parts of the libertarian ideology, through reason. It didn't happen through insults.

Iraq is a mess though, was a bad idea then, and is still a bad idea. We've pretty much put in place a proxy for Iran, and now we're probably going to have to work with Iran to fight the guys we supported to over throw Syria. Intervening in the politics of the middle east has made the US and Israel less safe not safer. We've managed to radicalize Sunnis, where they once were not. I agree with op-ed, that we conversation should be, to intervene or not intervene. Not how should we intervening, which is the mistake Obama continues to make.

Just like insults don't change minds, nor does violence or coercion. The the middle east is living proof.
 

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Reno, my apologies dressing up earlier in troll regalia. I'll constrain that uni to the global warming threads. You've always been one of the people in here to address issues and not people, which is a rarity in here. Being able to relate to people who oppose you on issues in a non-personal way is a good quality. Although it will likely be with points you've heard before I'll answer the OP and your most recent post tomorrow or Monday. I think I already did in my Woolsey thread below. Just so you know infantile was a shot the author's simplistic conclusions. The Three Stooges stuff was just me goofing. Sorry.
 

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Re: Non-Intervention -- I would say this piece covers most of it.

Summary: Indifference to the threat of Islamic terrorism, let alone acquiescence, is not an option for Western survival. With the military advances of the army of ISIS, now more than just a band of terrorists, and the capture of the towns of Mosul, Falluja, and Tikrit, the Western world is aware that an Islamic state, a modern-day caliphate, is rapidly being created in parts of Iraq and Syria.

The brutal nature of that caliphate has been immediately evident with its murder of large numbers of Iraqi soldiers and its callous treatment of women. While the impetus for the war is against the Iraqi regime of President al-Maliki, more important is its potential strategic use of the captured territory as a base for Islamic jihad against the West. Its victory will doubtless attract even more individuals committed to Islamist values.

The writer is Distinguished Professor Emeritus in political science at Rutgers University. (Commentator-UK)
Full Article at: http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5046/confronting_the_islamic_threat_to_the_west
 

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