More of that Canadian wisdom.

Search

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
Fallen soldiers knew the risks
Troops should be honoured, not pitied

Apr. 24, 2006. 01:00 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO
COLUMNIST

<!-- icx_story_begin -->Since their deployment to Afghanistan, Canadian soldiers have been lauded for their valour and their professionalism as combat troops.
What's not often cited is the moral clarity they have about this mission. And that's not me talking; it's them.
It is something to be kept in mind on the sorrowful occasions when they die, as occurred in such a terrible cluster on the weekend, and as no doubt will happen again because Afghanistan is a country of inherent, intrinsic risks.
Weep (and not crocodile tears) for those who made what is routinely and somewhat hollowly described as the "ultimate sacrifice,'' because that is proper. But grant them honour rather than pity, and acknowledge their commitment to duty rather than undermine it by exploiting the loss.
Every casualty absorbed is wrenching. But do, please, listen to their words and believe their sincerity.
Cpl. Matthew Dinning, Lieut. William Turner, Bombardier Myles Mansell, Cpl. Randy Payne: all knew what they were doing and were precisely where they wanted to be.
Turner, like his tragic predecessor in the specific job of liaising with village elders — Capt. Trevor Green, gravely injured when a teenager struck him in the head with an axe during a community meeting — had come late to soldiering and was a reservist, in Afghanistan as a volunteer civil-military co-operation officer, trying to make a difference, to improve the quality of life in a country unhinged by nearly three decades of conflict.
Dinning had followed in the footsteps of a father who served in Bosnia; Mansell had realized a life-long dream in seizing the adventurous career of a military man; Payne was attached to Gen. David Fraser's personal protection detail but so little has been made public about him that speculation is he may have been special forces.
No one knows better than the coalition soldiers in Afghanistan why Afghanistan needs coalition soldiers. They see it and live it every day, on every patrol, every convoy excursion along Highway 1 — the soldiers call its forbidding stretches, variously, Michelob and Whiskey and Miller — that can so abruptly swerve from routine to chaotic, every probing from a forward operating base, every report of another roadside explosion or suicide bombing.
And they suck it up, as no Canadian civilian can, at every solemn "ramp ceremony'' for a fallen comrade, regardless of nationality. Four more, now, of those. And four coffins transported home to grieving families.
Yet resolve is something Canada's soldiers — unlike a great many compatriots who are diffident about the military when not outright hostile — have in spades, along with courage.
In Afghanistan, in quiet late-night conversations over cigarettes, I never heard a single soldier speak of regrets or mission misgivings.
It was, indeed, with dismay that they spoke about those back home who claim to speak for them out of a professed concern for their fate and the political parameters of Task Force Afghanistan, nee Operation Enduring Freedom.
It was bewildering, sometimes, to realize that these Canadian troops were held in greater esteem by the vast majority of ordinary, war-weary Afghans than they and their objective are in their own country.
This is not a time for sophistry or polemics or, frankly, cowardice.
Ottawa, under the former Liberal regime, put Canadian troops in harm's way, perhaps back when they thought it wouldn't be so harmful at all, unlike Iraq. For possibly the wrong reasons, they did the right thing, as did all the other nations contributing forces to Task Force Afghanistan — the Germans who are in the north, the Italians in the West, the Americans who are still chasing Taliban and Al Qaeda elements in the East (where, it is believed, Osama bin Laden is hiding, somewhere in the lawless tribal territory that straddles the border with Pakistan), the British and Dutch in the south, the Australians and the French, the Romanians and the Spanish.
Some would have you believe that soldiers are all brawn and no brain, most especially the younger troops who comprise the vast majority of Task Force Orion, the three-company Canadian battle group that is doing most of the heavy lifting in Afghanistan — the patrolling and, when necessary, the fighting.
That is profoundly untrue. It takes intelligence, as well as bravery, to be a good and effective soldier. It requires a sixth sense — a quality that can only be honed in the trenches — to recognize danger and respond with alacrity, almost organically, so that everything one has learned in rigorous training can be applied to the heart-pounding hurly-burly of crisis, the sporadic violence that is the real pace and choreography of war by insurgency.
Soldiers don't sit around talking geopolitics and nation-building.
Indeed, the sitting around part — which is endemic in the army, hurry-up-and-wait the bane of a soldier's existence — tries character and spirit far more so than action and perilous assignments. Yet they are not mere ciphers, doing the bidding of generals and political masters, with no intellectual grasp of the mission.
These are not the men and women who, in a mainly support role, never actually leave the Kandahar airfield base. They are the ones who venture far from safety, taking the fight to the Taliban and the drug criminals, while simultaneously fostering trust in the populace through their frequent shuras to small towns and villages.
They're the ones who prefer sleeping on the ground, outdoors, under the stars, to the child-size bunk beds in the crammed Big Ass Tents on base.
They're the grunts who established a foothold in Gombad, 75 kilometres north of KAF, from which excursions more distant could be launched. It was from that crude outpost that the Canadian convoy was returning when one of the vehicles, a G-Wagon, was blown up by an improvised explosive device early Saturday morning.
Whether a lucky hit or a clever hit is as yet unknown. But a lethal hit, most certainly, three Canadian soldiers dead on the scene and one, Payne, dying after evacuation and surgery at the multinational KAF hospital.
Canada's military vehicles have largely stood up well to IED attacks, the gallant LAV-III in particular withstanding explosions and rocket assaults.
But there is no such thing as zero-risk, not when IEDs can be fitted with heavy-bang explosives. No doubt the insurgents realized their devices were having minimal effect and they cranked up the juice, such that Saturday's explosion was heard for miles around.
There are more than 10,000 coalition troops in Afghanistan, a number that will expand to 21,000 by November, by which time the combined forces will be under NATO jurisdiction, with the British assuming overall command.
But it still takes only a handful of insurgents to create havoc.
It won't win the war. It could, though, win the battle against faint hearts and conflicted minds.
<HR width="90%"></HR>Toronto Star columnist Rosie DiManno recently returned from a five-week assignment with the Canadian military in Afghanistan.
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
Where in her article does she support her assertion that Canadian troops are 'pitied'?

In another thread, I remember pointedly saying I have no sympathy nor pity for any troops who volunteer. They know well in advance what they're getting into and what dangers they may face. And I can't recall anyone else that I've spoken to feeling pity for them, either.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
xpanda said:
Where in her article does she support her assertion that Canadian troops are 'pitied'?

In another thread, I remember pointedly saying I have no sympathy nor pity for any troops who volunteer. They know well in advance what they're getting into and what dangers they may face. And I can't recall anyone else that I've spoken to feeling pity for them, either.
That wasnt sarcasm BTW X.

This is the crux of the anti-war movement.....the kids were tricked.

Do you need to look any further than Sheehan?

You havent come across any article or any person thats given you the "poor troops" "tricked by Bush" "need the paycheck" "brainwashed" "do what theyre told" routine?In fact right in here youll get some of this.
 

Militant Birther
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
11,836
Tokens
Right you are, Base. The anti-war movement is made up of some of the most hardline anti-democratic, communist voices in America and Canada. Cyndi Sheehan makes me vommit. Her son is no doubt turning over in his grave over the political charade of his mother.

God bless those who put their lives on the line for a cause they believe in: a more freer, peaceful, and prosperous world. My heart goes out to the families. Where would we be and what would our lives look like without these brave men and women?

RICHMOND HILL -- Cpl. Matthew Dinning was killed doing what he believed in -- fighting for democracy, his grandparents say.

Dinning, 23, was one of four Canadian soldiers killed Saturday when their vehicle was struck by an explosive device in Afghanistan.

"Matthew firmly believed everyone should have freedom in their own country, so he was passionate about his work," Dinning's maternal grandmother, Rhelda Stockall, said yesterday.

The family saw Matthew off at CFB Trenton in January when he was deployed to Afghanistan.

HIS CHOICE

"As a grandmother, it's scary to see your grandson go off to war. That was his choice, and we had to go along with it. I hope some good can come from the work Matthew was doing," she said.

Dinning joined the military three years ago after taking police training at Westervelt College in London.

"He wanted to go into the military to be a policeman. That was his wish ... to help with democracy. He was a very caring boy and wanted to try to get (the Afghan) people better living conditions," said Dinning's grandfather Jim Stockall.

"His father (Lincoln Dinning) is an OPP officer and had been to Kosovo as a peacekeeper. He (Matthew) wouldn't have joined the military if he wasn't a policeman. It was his background."

Stockall knows his grandson's death will be fuel for those Canadians opposed to Canada's involvement in Afghanistan, but his family is committed to the mission.

"Canada wants other countries to be free," he said.

Stockall isn't offended that the flags on Parliament Hill aren't at half staff. "They have never done that for any other war. Maybe it's something we should think about initiating country-wide," he said.

On Saturday, the Stockalls gathered with family to mourn Dinning in Wingham, 60 km north of London.

"The house was filled with kids who knew Matthew. He went to hockey school when he was young and then became a hockey counsellor for three summers. He loved hockey and loved kids," Stockall said. "He was great with kids and would have wanted a family."
 

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
7,379
Tokens
It may be true some in the military didn't mind being sent into an unnecessary war but there are many that are less than pleased. You won't hear them complain now.
My guess, about a year after this mission is actually accomplished you'll start hearing from them. After they are out of the military, after the bush regime, when a competent government is in place, (here, not Iraq, I don't look for Iraq to have one for decades, if ever) when the threat of repercussion is a fading memory. You'll hear it then, I guarantee it. It may not even take that long.
So you go ahead post your stories about how everyone in the military is happy to serve this president. The day will come when this dog won't hunt anymore.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
8,951
Tokens
Joe Contrarian said:
Right you are, Base. The anti-war movement is made up of some of the most hardline anti-democratic, communist voices in America and Canada. Cyndi Sheehan makes me vommit. Her son is no doubt turning over in his grave over the political charade of his mother.

God bless those who put their lives on the line for a cause they believe in: a more freer, peaceful, and prosperous world. My heart goes out to the families. Where would we be and what would our lives look like without these brave men and women?

RICHMOND HILL -- Cpl. Matthew Dinning was killed doing what he believed in -- fighting for democracy, his grandparents say.

Dinning, 23, was one of four Canadian soldiers killed Saturday when their vehicle was struck by an explosive device in Afghanistan.

"Matthew firmly believed everyone should have freedom in their own country, so he was passionate about his work," Dinning's maternal grandmother, Rhelda Stockall, said yesterday.

The family saw Matthew off at CFB Trenton in January when he was deployed to Afghanistan.

HIS CHOICE

"As a grandmother, it's scary to see your grandson go off to war. That was his choice, and we had to go along with it. I hope some good can come from the work Matthew was doing," she said.

Dinning joined the military three years ago after taking police training at Westervelt College in London.

"He wanted to go into the military to be a policeman. That was his wish ... to help with democracy. He was a very caring boy and wanted to try to get (the Afghan) people better living conditions," said Dinning's grandfather Jim Stockall.

"His father (Lincoln Dinning) is an OPP officer and had been to Kosovo as a peacekeeper. He (Matthew) wouldn't have joined the military if he wasn't a policeman. It was his background."

Stockall knows his grandson's death will be fuel for those Canadians opposed to Canada's involvement in Afghanistan, but his family is committed to the mission.

"Canada wants other countries to be free," he said.

Stockall isn't offended that the flags on Parliament Hill aren't at half staff. "They have never done that for any other war. Maybe it's something we should think about initiating country-wide," he said.

On Saturday, the Stockalls gathered with family to mourn Dinning in Wingham, 60 km north of London.

"The house was filled with kids who knew Matthew. He went to hockey school when he was young and then became a hockey counsellor for three summers. He loved hockey and loved kids," Stockall said. "He was great with kids and would have wanted a family."
According to you, Joe Contrarian, if these soldiers want to fight for freedom, they should be doing so in Ottawa, not Afghanistan! :thumbsup2:
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
BASEHEAD said:
This is the crux of the anti-war movement.....the kids were tricked.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Canadian soldiers - they aren't in Iraq.
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
Oh, and just to add:

My anti-war position has bupkus to do with those 'poor soldiers who've been tricked' and everything to do with civilian casualties. I have not one ounce of sympathy for those who would sign up to kill and die in the name of the state or religion, who can quickly review history to see that not all military action is honourable or for the purposes of defense (the only moral reason for violence) and yet still choose to join. It's like a woman taking a job at Sexists Are Us and then trying to file a harassment suit. The risks were obvious well in advance.

Who I do have empathy for are the innocent civilians (and this includes the victims of 9/11) who get caught in these geopolitical pissing matches, when all they want to do is live their lives, love their families, and grow old. Politics and war deny them these basic, inalienable rights.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
xpanda said:
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Canadian soldiers - they aren't in Iraq.

Canadians are fighting a war.I cant imagine liberals up north being any less careless with the facts than they are down here.

I respect your anti-war views.....but sowetimes wars must be fought.
 

This place isn't paradise... trust me.
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
6,437
Tokens
xpanda said:
Who I do have empathy for are the innocent civilians (and this includes the victims of 9/11) who get caught in these geopolitical pissing matches, when all they want to do is live their lives, love their families, and grow old. Politics and war deny them these basic, inalienable rights.

Very well said X... yet another outstanding post from you! I totally agree.

BDiz..
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
"Who I do have empathy for are the innocent civilians (and this includes the victims of 9/11) who get caught in these geopolitical pissing matches, when all they want to do is live their lives, love their families, and grow old. Politics and war deny them these basic, inalienable rights."

Rights...lol??? What about when leaders (ie Saddam/Taliban) repress those rights...take away those lives....kill whole families....deprive them of food and water....deny them every one of things you list?
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
BASEHEAD said:
Canadians are fighting a war.I cant imagine liberals up north being any less careless with the facts than they are down here.

Well, before you 'imagine' anything, perhaps you would be better served to do some reading and THEN draw a conclusion.

So far as I can tell, most Canadians at this stage are pretty disinterested in what's going on in Afghanistan. Most common replies have to do with catching OBL, and people wondering if that's still on the agenda.
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
BASEHEAD said:
Rights...lol??? What about when leaders (ie Saddam/Taliban) repress those rights...take away those lives....kill whole families....deprive them of food and water....deny them every one of things you list?

And then they get the pleasure of bombs being dropped on them to the tune of 100,000 casualties all in the name of protecting them from having their basic right to life taken away under Saddam. (Which of course was never the reason, but I'm just following your false logic for the purposes of this reply.)

I've said this a million times ... the United States was not under any kind of threat from Saddam Hussein. The war, and the one hundred thousand dead (not even mentioning the wounded, maimed, or robbed) is an act of aggression and has no basis in morality.

Saving you from a cobra by sending hungry grizzlies to kill it, ultimately, isn't much of a win, is it?

Replacing one form of murder with another is not liberty.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
8,951
Tokens
xpanda said:
And then they get the pleasure of bombs being dropped on them to the tune of 100,000 casualties all in the name of protecting them from having their basic right to life taken away under Saddam. (Which of course was never the reason, but I'm just following your false logic for the purposes of this reply.)

I've said this a million times ... the United States was not under any kind of threat from Saddam Hussein. The war, and the one hundred thousand dead (not even mentioning the wounded, maimed, or robbed) is an act of aggression and has no basis in morality.

Saving you from a cobra by sending hungry grizzlies to kill it, ultimately, isn't much of a win, is it?

Replacing one form of murder with another is not liberty.
Yes, but it does make you ALOT of money, if you are the one starting the war!
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
22,231
Tokens
"What about when leaders (ie Saddam/Taliban) repress those rights...take away those lives....kill whole families....deprive them of food and water....deny them every one of things you list?"

SEEMS LIKE THAT WOULD CERTAINLY FIT JUNG W/NORTH KOREA WHO DOES HAVE NUKES AND CAN HIT THE WEST COAST IS AS JUST AS BIG
OF NUTCASE AS GEORGE BUSH .. FOLKS IN N KOREA ARE STARVING TO DEATH AND HE HAS THREATENED TO USE NUKES ON AMERICA???

FUNNY HOW THE "PRIORITIES" JUST MAKE NOOOOOOO SENSE ...<!-- / message -->
 

This place isn't paradise... trust me.
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
6,437
Tokens
doc mercer said:
"What about when leaders (ie Saddam/Taliban) repress those rights...take away those lives....kill whole families....deprive them of food and water....deny them every one of things you list?"

SEEMS LIKE THAT WOULD CERTAINLY FIT JUNG W/NORTH KOREA WHO DOES HAVE NUKES AND CAN HIT THE WEST COAST IS AS JUST AS BIG
OF NUTCASE AS GEORGE BUSH .. FOLKS IN N KOREA ARE STARVING TO DEATH AND HE HAS THREATENED TO USE NUKES ON AMERICA???

<!-- / message --> FUNNY HOW THE "PRIORITIES" JUST MAKE NOOOOOOO SENSE ...

EXCELLENT post Doc! No Spam and a very great arguement! Glad to see you participating in this fashion!

BDiz..
 

Militant Birther
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
11,836
Tokens
I've said this a million times ... the United States was not under any kind of threat from Saddam Hussein.

This is quite simply, a boldfaced lie. There is no other word for it. All your 'reasoning' which follows, flows from this fallacy. So it's pointless and a waste of time for anyone to debate you, if you honestly keep spinning/lying your way through this debate. Why not adamantly claim the Brewers won the WS last year? That would be equally convincing.

Morover, you have no business judging others in this war, seeing that the economic (and ultimate bloodshed) costs of 'containment' never originated from your own pocket or your family -- the innocent victims of terror.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
22,231
Tokens
Contrarian ....

so the deal with the Right is that "unless the economic (and ultimate bloodshed) costs of 'containment' never originated from your own pocket or your family"

In that case then goodbye to cheerleaders like Coulter/ Hannity/O'Lielly/ Rove/Cheney and numeour posters on this board as none of them have been effected and NONE OF THEM HAVE LOST KIDS IN THIS WAR so that "dog dont hunt" that only those "effected" have a voice in this war since the biggerst mouths on the Right fit exactly the parameters of those you are trying to tell to stay out of the debate
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,126,810
Messages
13,687,821
Members
102,371
Latest member
jenniferarmins1
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com