Its an experience thing. You learn numbers by being around the business. Like anything you start at the bottom, in this case most likely writing bets, on paper not so long ago, today with a computer. I don't know of any handbook that can train someone right off the street to be a linesman. Once you do get there, you have to learn to book to your clintele. For example the linesmaker at a sharp action book like CRIS will react differently to who bets rather than how much is bet. A stone square shop will move on money to keep a relatively even chart if possible. Unless they for some reason want to be on one side or another of a particular game, in which case you leave a number high or low depending on what side you want. There is plenty more to it, which I will leave to others.
wil.
wil.
Thanks for the responses ... I am very familiar with writing wagers ... and how to come up with a general line ... but what I am trying to gather is information for a possible start up offshore sportsbook ... how do you find a good linesmaker or do you do think many of the books just follow the DBS screen? Just curious ...
Opinions?
Thanks.
CE
Opinions?
Thanks.
CE
RPM,
Almost no one learns to move numbers working in Vegas anymore!
I think the key to being a line manager is just being on the same page as the shop manager and the investors. While there certainly are a few quality people working the job right now that can stand on their own two feet, most have to accept the fact that their shops have limits on what they like to take on a decision and even more limits as to what they are willing to stomach certain players beating them for. Being a good line manager for shops like that requires a political element, so to speak. I do agree though the longer you are around the environment, the better you can do. However I do think a lot of that is just in establishing the right relationship with those above you. I don't know if clerking or being in the atmosphere means much if you never really work with the brass and gain their confidence and understanding. Also doesn't hurt to learn from someone in that shop as well, he obviously is on the same page to get the job and to keep it, gotta learn his in-shop tricks to do well.
Almost no one learns to move numbers working in Vegas anymore!
I think the key to being a line manager is just being on the same page as the shop manager and the investors. While there certainly are a few quality people working the job right now that can stand on their own two feet, most have to accept the fact that their shops have limits on what they like to take on a decision and even more limits as to what they are willing to stomach certain players beating them for. Being a good line manager for shops like that requires a political element, so to speak. I do agree though the longer you are around the environment, the better you can do. However I do think a lot of that is just in establishing the right relationship with those above you. I don't know if clerking or being in the atmosphere means much if you never really work with the brass and gain their confidence and understanding. Also doesn't hurt to learn from someone in that shop as well, he obviously is on the same page to get the job and to keep it, gotta learn his in-shop tricks to do well.
CE, to learn, you may want to move in with Wilheim for a few years(Wil's so old, he was born before the Minny-line was invented
), or put in applications with Larry,etc..offshore.
As Wil noted, the way most once learned was in their old locales in illegal operations, or going to LV to put in time under the originals like Bob Martin, Sonny Reizner, Pittsburgh Jack Franzi,etc..
And while the young generation of Joe Lupo, Chuck Esposito,etc..are promising, they're just not old-school enough in my book..I'd rather pick the brain of a Richard Klamian, Jimmy Vaccaro, or Scotty Schettler.
There is a reason Angelle worships Wil..old school rules baby, old school rules!
P.S. In no way am I making light of younger guys like Lupo, Esposito,etc..as I am sure I could do nothing but learn the BM trade and odd-setting for a few solid years from them, before needing to walk..just prefer old wisemen.
[This message was edited by Horseshoe on February 18, 2004 at 04:33 AM.]
As Wil noted, the way most once learned was in their old locales in illegal operations, or going to LV to put in time under the originals like Bob Martin, Sonny Reizner, Pittsburgh Jack Franzi,etc..
And while the young generation of Joe Lupo, Chuck Esposito,etc..are promising, they're just not old-school enough in my book..I'd rather pick the brain of a Richard Klamian, Jimmy Vaccaro, or Scotty Schettler.
There is a reason Angelle worships Wil..old school rules baby, old school rules!
P.S. In no way am I making light of younger guys like Lupo, Esposito,etc..as I am sure I could do nothing but learn the BM trade and odd-setting for a few solid years from them, before needing to walk..just prefer old wisemen.
[This message was edited by Horseshoe on February 18, 2004 at 04:33 AM.]
Horseshoe,if you are from vegas wich it sounds like you are I bet we just might know each other
those three old school guys you mention'd were the some of the finest linemakers I ever knew I learn'd the ropes from Herbie "hoops" Lambeck most managers now couldnt carry these guys jockstraps
As Wil noted, the way most learned was in their old locales in illegal operations, or going to LV to put in time under the originals like Bob Martin, Sonny Reizner, Pittsburgh Jack Franzi,etc..---
quote by Horseshoe
I broke into the business in the early 80's at the old Castaways under Sonny.
Learned most of my bookmaking skills from Sonny and am very proud to say so.
One of the great fundamentals I learned was the use of a GAME CHART for every game and to how to stay on top of EVERY game with relatively ease. The CHART was a great tool that many bookmakers to this day still use.
As many others have done, what I learned from Sonny paved a much easier path for myself to have a bookmaking job at other casinos.
The Tricle down effect of SUCCESSFUL bookmakers from Sonny is amazing.
If I didnt love the USA so much, I would be offshore in a blink of an eye.
Many made fun of Sonny and his famous CIRCLED games(half limit)......BUT THATS WHAT YOU HAVE LIMITS FOR!! Even I agree though, Sonny went a little overboard at times.
Please note, Sonny NEVER had a losing season bookmaking in any sport EVER.
quote by Horseshoe
I broke into the business in the early 80's at the old Castaways under Sonny.
Learned most of my bookmaking skills from Sonny and am very proud to say so.
One of the great fundamentals I learned was the use of a GAME CHART for every game and to how to stay on top of EVERY game with relatively ease. The CHART was a great tool that many bookmakers to this day still use.
As many others have done, what I learned from Sonny paved a much easier path for myself to have a bookmaking job at other casinos.
The Tricle down effect of SUCCESSFUL bookmakers from Sonny is amazing.
If I didnt love the USA so much, I would be offshore in a blink of an eye.
Many made fun of Sonny and his famous CIRCLED games(half limit)......BUT THATS WHAT YOU HAVE LIMITS FOR!! Even I agree though, Sonny went a little overboard at times.
Please note, Sonny NEVER had a losing season bookmaking in any sport EVER.
Mvbski, I'm not from Vegas, but have had extended stays there in the past, and was lucky enough to meet and talk to some of these greats at the counters & a few in restraunts..Herbie Hoops & Billy Baxter are my heroes!
Fish, you were trained by no doubt, one of
the top ever..the man knew how to run a Book.
Mvbski, in your old haunt, I've had a kosher dog and Dr.Browns in one hand, while playing what Nick would allow with the other before..we may have made small talk at the counter?
I'm old school..but not necessarily old.
Fish, you were trained by no doubt, one of
the top ever..the man knew how to run a Book.
Mvbski, in your old haunt, I've had a kosher dog and Dr.Browns in one hand, while playing what Nick would allow with the other before..we may have made small talk at the counter?
I'm old school..but not necessarily old.
CHALK EATER..ARE YOU WANTING TO BE LINESMAKER? YOU LIVE IN VEGAS?
EMAIL ME AT VEGASGUY35@EXCITE.COM WITH MORE INFO.
EMAIL ME AT VEGASGUY35@EXCITE.COM WITH MORE INFO.
Vegasguy,
I'm looking into what it takes to become a linesmaker to help assist in a possible start-up offshore sportsbook.
I believe, although I can't verify this, a lot of the offshore books wait and see what the top books (CRIS, ABC Islands, Cascade, etc.) post their numbers and then follow the DBS screen. I question whether or not some of the offshore books even have linesmakers.
I was just curious as to whether or not their is some master (for lack of a better word) program one can buy that takes every possible stat and shoots out a line, with the public factor already calculated in ...
Appreciate the comments from all of you ...
CE
I'm looking into what it takes to become a linesmaker to help assist in a possible start-up offshore sportsbook.
I believe, although I can't verify this, a lot of the offshore books wait and see what the top books (CRIS, ABC Islands, Cascade, etc.) post their numbers and then follow the DBS screen. I question whether or not some of the offshore books even have linesmakers.
I was just curious as to whether or not their is some master (for lack of a better word) program one can buy that takes every possible stat and shoots out a line, with the public factor already calculated in ...
Appreciate the comments from all of you ...
CE
