Latest Antigua WTO article.. UPDATE here

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posted by JC at MW



Inside U.S. Trade

An Inside Washington Publication

An exclusive weekly report on major government and industry trade action

Vol. 22, No. 35 - August 27, 2004
U.S., ANTIGUA SEEK MORE TIME TO SETTLE WTO GAMBLING DISPUTE

The World Trade Organization last week agreed to a joint request from the U.S. and Antigua and Barbuda to extend the deadline for the two countries to strike a deal that would end proceedings on a WTO challenge Antigua launched against the U.S. over a ban that prohibits Antiguan based firms from providing online gambling services to U.S. based customers.

On August 20, the chairman of the panel hearing the case announced that the panel had agreed to the joint request to suspend proceedings for an additional 28 working days. As a result, the U.S. and Antigua now have until October 4 to hammer out an agreement.

In June, the panel agreed to a request from both countries to suspend proceedings until August 23. However, on Aug. 16 both countries asked the panel to extend that deadline.

A U.S. trade official declined to comment on the reason for the extension, saying only that the U.S. is pleased to continue the talks. Another trade diplomat declined to characterize how close negotiators are to working out a solution.

The diplomat did say that negotiators have yet to decide both on a date and venue for the next round of formal talks, but stressed that the negotiations are not confined to face-to-face meetings between officials.

U.S. and Antiguan officials last held formal talks in Washington on Aug. 23, the original deadline the two countries had set for reaching a deal, the trade diplomat said. At that meeting, the diplomat said U.S. officials from outside the U.S. Trade Representative?s Office, which has been spearheading the talks, were brought in.

Prior to the Aug. 23 meeting, negotiators also met in Washington on Aug. 10. It was at this meeting that negotiators decided it was necessary to expand the talks to include additional U.S. officials to aid efforts to strike a deal

A U.S.-Antigua agreement would end all proceedings in the WTO on the dispute and guarantee that an interim ruling issued in March is never made final or released to the public. That ruling found that the U.S. had constructed its Uruguay Round services schedule to allow the cross-border supply of gambling services, such as Antiguan based Internet casinos.

As a result, the panel ruled that the U.S. could not deny such service providers access to the U.S. market. The U.S. strongly rejected arguments that it had undertaken any commitments to allow the cross-border supply of gambling services, and insisted it would appeal the ruling.

Antigua has long argued that securing U.S. market access for Antiguan Internet gambling providers remains its primary goal in the talks with the U.S.

The fact that the U.S. has agreed to pursue a negotiated solution has led countries to believe that if the WTO were to ever formally adopt the ruling it could significantly impact the way countries are able to schedule services commitments in the Doha round.
 

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Typical delay. Delay, appeal, challenge ruling...never give in.
 

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Stall, Stall, Stall until after the 2004 Election and then tell Antigua and the WTO to go fuk themselves.
 

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I love how this and all the articles gloss over a simple fact: sports betting is not offered in 48 states. The WTO dispute will essentially cover horse racing because that is what is in dispute. The US is barring them from accepting horse racing wagers while allowing a number of US firms the ability to do so. They will just create some framework which allows them to accept horse wagers like youbet and all the others and that will cover their obligation to fair trade. Nothing in the WTO rules says they have to expand their offerings to activities which the local governments deems illegal.

Watch guys, this is exactly the deal they will cut. It could pave the way for future moves into sports betting, but then again maybe it just sets it all back.
 

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I hope it paves the way....thanks Bill for your thoughts

would love to get more comments on this also from other sharp people here
 

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Wild Bill,

I enjoy many of your artticles and posts. However, I believe you are misinformed on the thrust of Antigua's case against the US.

The case is about whether or not the US has made commitments under the GATS to open its consumer markets to the cross border supply of gambling services. It does not hang on what US state and Federal laws say. We know their publicly stated positions.

The GATS which was signed by the President and ratified by Congress is what the panel ruled on. Antigua won, the details of the decision have not been made public yet.

It has nothing to do with horse racing vs. sports betting.
 

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Jay, I am glad you cleared that up. I was confused there for a minute. I have been following this situation for some time and will be interested to see the outcome.
 

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Glad you posted Jay. While you are correct my sense is that the US will delay, obsfucate, threaten, stall and in order to avoid a WTO ruling may offer what Wild Bill suggests. OTOH they might just walk away from negotiation and then appeal any WTO ruling and/or fail to implement it anyway.

Off the subject but Canada has a softwood lumber trade dispute that's been running over 2 years now. Every time Canada gets a favourable ruling from NAFTA or WTO the US lobby appeals or moves the goal posts. It appears all the border taxes collected will go to the US industry and never be returned even if Canada prevails in the end.

To my mind that's just the way the US government does business. There is a strong belief down there, as you know, that US law applies to the entire world.
 

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Jay C,

An attorney I worked with during the past battles in the US House told me just days ago over dinner that for practical purposes my argument is correct. Opening up the gambling services market still requires legality of the given activities, but if legal then foreign operators must be allowed access to the market on fairly equal terms. You are correct in that it doesn't deal with specific topics such as sports or horses, but countries are under no obligation to allow activity of any kind they don't want. The US government has gone as far as to say offering sports betting in all but 5 states is against the law so for legal purposes I (and my legal associate) just see no way for this to create a de-facto legalization of offshore sports betting.

Obviously I wish I could have better news on this, but this is the unfortunate reality. The WTO doesn't make laws, they just make sure the laws are applied without prejudice based on country of origin.

Even if passed, the US government has ways to make Antiguan operations in horse betting almost unworkable. Bottom line is that the likely scenario is the US will allow Antiguan operations to apply for licensing, grill them half to death on hearsay connections to organized crime and what have you, and then if they still really want to offer the betting they will allow them to do so under onerous conditions. Rebating can be banned. Live signals might be tough to get. And the companies could be forced to stay within tough regulated conditions to prove everyone is of age and making each individual bet in a legal jurisdiction. In short I think almost all current offshores would probably say screw it and just go on being unregulated offshore entities as they are now with the advantages they do enjoy.
 

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Take my word on this one for now. What you are saying is not a factor.

Read the Antiguan briefs in the case. And remember Antigua won.

When the opinion is published you will see what I am talking about.
 

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woodyo.....quote...

" theres a strong belief... that the u.s. law applies to the entire world..."

as far as gambling.....basically yes...

WILDBILL.........on the U.S. making whatever antigua passes...unworkable.......ABSOLUTELY......


imo......no-matter what gambling laws other countries adopt that would be partisan to sportsbooks.....as long as the u.s. views sportsbetting (outside of vegas) as a no-no.....nothing will change....except the u.s. coming up with more laws to restrict the industry (funding gambling accounts is the achilles heel).....
 

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jay c.........i am trying to understand why you think the WTO ruling can actually change the way the U.S. gov. will look upon offshore gambling........

you say...
The case is about whether or not the US has made commitments under the GATS to open its consumer markets to the cross border supply of gambling services. It does not hang on what US state and Federal laws say. We know their publicly stated positions.............

so what??????....

ok so the ruling says open up the consumer markets.....that will carry no weight whatsoever...when it comes to the u.s. citizen who wants to make a bet at an offshore book.........if the u.s. says no.........then dammit thats how it is.....


you have to go to the source.......THE UNITED STATES.....the laws pertaining to gambling must be changed here......

that is reality.......
 

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There was another case involving the US and Mexico.

The situation was reversed, the US was challenging Mexico. Mexico took the position that what the US was asking for was contrary to mexican law.

The US response in their briefs:
It doesn't matter what Mexican law is, the commitments are the commitments and the treaty applies.

They said the above almost word for word. I don't have it in front of me, I will try to get it.

Now, I will say that the US tried to make some of the same arguments Wild Bill is bringing up. The opinion is not published yet but please note that the US lost.

I am not sure if you know but several other countries filed briefs in support of Antigua. They were Canada, Japan, Mexico, Taiwan, and a little entity called the European Union.

Maybe you are all right, maybe this is so important to the US that they'll let the WTO collapse over it and cost the country billions of dollars across other industries.

The US gets more out of the WTO then any oether country. They can't pick and choose which decisions they abide by. The whole thing would collapse if countries just started ignoring decisions they don't like.
 

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jay c.............please explain how the WTO can actually benefit a u.s. citizen that wants to make a bet online at an offshore book..........

just because somewhere in the treaty "a reference to gambling is made"...........and books sprout up everywhere under the "guidelines" that make it perfectly legal under the WTO.....no different from how costa rica and other countries have been doing business.....world trade, everybody will prosper, meanwhile the U.S. passes another law that restricts funding accounts at offshore sportsbooks......
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay C:
They can't pick and choose which decisions they abide by. The whole thing would collapse if countries just started ignoring decisions they don't like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For a minute there I thought you were talkning about Genocidal George's selective dismissal of the UN .. whew.

Jay, never underestimate the underhandedness and corruption of the US mafi .. federal government.
 

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Jay C from your post I feel a bit optimist then about something good happening for regulation from this thing....only time can tell ...and one can hope I guess
 

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icon_confused.gif
I am confused Nothing new. Thanks JC and Wild Bill both for keeping us informed.
Would this be something similiar to for example: Voting for the war in Iraq and then voting against the funding of it? That's kinda what I make out of it. Hope it really helps us down the road.
 

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I can only hope Jay C is right, but just from my understanding of the WTO, the US government and US states can't be compelled to legalize something under any international treaty or trade agreement. These in spirit only serve to keep legal activities fair game for foreign countries. Once again, I hope Jay C is right and there is something up Antigua's sleeve on this one, but until I hear the US government admit they won't stop offshore gambling on sports I won't believe it.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay C: The US response in their briefs:
It doesn't matter what Mexican law is, the commitments are the commitments and the treaty applies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shoe was on the other foot in that case. I also recall the item but not the exact issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay C: They can't pick and choose which decisions they abide by. The whole thing would collapse if countries just started ignoring decisions they don't like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes they can.

Excuse my cynicism. I'm 99% certain that the way this plays is that Jay is technically correct and the US is in a losing position but Wild Bill is practically correct and nothing of substance will change due to the WTO ruling.
 

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