Kerry: Health Care, Bush: Tax Cuts For The Rich. You Decide,

Search

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
Will actual policy issues play any role in this election? Not if the White House can help it. But if some policy substance does manage to be heard over the clanging of conveniently timed terror alerts, voters will realize that they face some stark choices. Here's one of them: tax cuts for the very well-off versus health insurance.

John Kerry has proposed an ambitious health care plan that would extend coverage to tens of millions of uninsured Americans, while reducing premiums for the insured. To pay for that plan, Mr. Kerry wants to rescind recent tax cuts for the roughly 3 percent of the population with incomes above $200,000.

George Bush regards those tax cuts as sacrosanct. I'll talk about his health care policies, such as they are, in another column.

Considering its scope, Mr. Kerry's health plan has received remarkably little attention. So let me talk about two of its key elements.

First, the Kerry plan raises the maximum incomes under which both children and parents are eligible to receive benefits from Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. This would extend coverage to many working-class families, who often fall into a painful gap: they earn too much money to qualify for government help, but not enough to pay for health insurance. As a result, the Kerry plan would probably end a national scandal, the large number of uninsured American children.

Second, the Kerry plan would provide "reinsurance" for private health plans, picking up 75 percent of the medical bills exceeding $50,000 a year. Although catastrophic medical expenses strike only a tiny fraction of Americans each year, they account for a sizeable fraction of health care costs.

By relieving insurance companies and H.M.O.'s of this risk, the government would drive down premiums by 10 percent or more.

This is a truly good idea. Our society tries to protect its members from the consequences of random misfortune; that's why we aid the victims of hurricanes, earthquakes and terrorist attacks. Catastrophic health expenses, which can easily drive a family into bankruptcy, fall into the same category. Yet private insurers try hard, and often successfully, to avoid covering such expenses. (That's not a moral condemnation; they are, after all, in business.)

All this does is pass the buck: in the end, the Americans who can't afford to pay huge medical bills usually get treatment anyway, through a mixture of private and public charity. But this happens only after treatments are delayed, families are driven into bankruptcy and insurers spend billions trying not to provide care.

By directly assuming much of the risk of catastrophic illness, the government can avoid all of this waste, and it can eliminate a lot of suffering while actually reducing the amount that the nation spends on health care.

Still, the Kerry plan will require increased federal spending. Kenneth Thorpe of Emory University, an independent health care expert who has analyzed both the Kerry and Bush plans, puts the net cost of the plan to the federal government at $653 billion over the next decade. Is that a lot of money?

Not compared with the Bush tax cuts: the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities estimates that if these cuts are made permanent, as the administration wants, they will cost $2.8 trillion over the next decade.

The Kerry campaign contends that it can pay for its health care plan by rolling back only the cuts for taxpayers with incomes above $200,000. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, which has become the best source for tax analysis now that the Treasury Department's Office of Tax Policy has become a propaganda agency, more or less agrees: it estimates the revenue gain from the Kerry tax plan at $631 billion over the next decade.

What are the objections to the Kerry plan? One is that it falls far short of the comprehensive overhaul our health care system really needs. Another is that by devoting the proceeds of a tax-cut rollback to health care, Mr. Kerry fails to offer a plan to reduce the budget deficit. But on both counts Mr. Bush is equally, if not more, vulnerable. And Mr. Kerry's plan would help far more people than it would hurt.

If we ever get a clear national debate about health care and taxes, I don't see how President Bush will win it.

PAUL KRUGMAN
New York Times
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
I normally don't even bother reading Krugman's pigshit column (but I love you wil, even if you post it every day) but I can't help but respond to this one by pointing out a fact which Krugman beyond a shred of a doubt already knows but conveniently leaves out of his diatribe: that pack of rat bastards that make up the 3% of Americans who earn over $ 200,000.00 per year pays approximately 40% of all income tax in America. A tax cut which benefits them is hardly a penalty on the rest of America, especially given the goodies that that 3% fronts for the bottom of the tier.

"Class warfare" doesn't begin to describe it -- that would imply mutual hostility. You have one tiny segment of the American population footing the majority of the bill (btw the top 5% pays 53% of the tax, so it is a literal majority once you head over $ 128,000.00 per) and all they ever get is shit on by everybody else.

Kruguman is an embarrassing charlatan though; it's pointless to even bother refuting the sort of idiocy that comes out of his hole.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
Phaedrus I know Krugman is well over the top most of the time, however I believe the last paragraph worth the time used to read the column.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What are the objections to the Kerry plan? One is that it falls far short of the comprehensive overhaul our health care system really needs. Another is that by devoting the proceeds of a tax-cut rollback to health care, Mr. Kerry fails to offer a plan to reduce the budget deficit. But on both counts Mr. Bush is equally, if not more, vulnerable. And Mr. Kerry's plan would help far more people than it would hurt.

If we ever get a clear national debate about health care and taxes, I don't see how President Bush will win it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At some point the issue needs to be addressed by both parties. Millions of Americans walking around without heath care is a disgrace.


wil.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,917
Tokens
Nice post Phaedrus...it's about time you got off the video poker and said something.

Hey Wil, maybe if we had some caps on medical malpractice awards, health insurance would be more affordable. Oops I forgot you're supporting a trial lawyer who made his fortune in that and votes against the bill every time it comes up.

By the way I've been to the emergency room several times this past week and have seen many of your fellow Democratic constituents. None of them have insurance but somehow the gunshot wounds are treated....hmmmmmm.
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By the way I've been to the emergency room several times this past week and have seen many of your fellow Democratic constituents. None of them have insurance but somehow the gunshot wounds are treated....hmmmmmm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Profiling I see, not surprized, ignorance and bigotry are easily disguised with phony patriotism.

wil.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,228
Tokens
So wouldn't it be a good idea for them to leave en-masse for offshore tax havens.

Why do they bother sticking around???

Are there restrictions on ownership if you are not a US citizen?

(I know that Murdoch had to make himself a US citizen to derive certain ownership rights.)

Those fuxxers won't hang around unless its to their advantage...

Will do some digging later...
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
Aw shucks Send, I didn't know you paid that much attention to me.
icon_smile.gif


Funny you should mention Edwards' trial law past. I recently read the below brief at Law & Tax News and it actually seems quasi-hopeful:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
US Senate Debates Bill To Limit Class Actions

by Glen Shapiro

The US Senate on Tuesday began debating the Class Action Fairness Act, which would impose certain restrictions on cases brought against businesses by individuals or small groups on behalf of a larger group, or "class" of people.

The bill currently under discussion in the Republican-controlled upper house would move the majority of class action suits from state to federal courts, as the latter usually accept fewer cases, and grant smaller awards.

It would also clamp down on the practice of venue shopping, whereby attorneys seek to have cases tried in courts which have handed down large damages awards in the past.

Speaking to the Associated Press as debate on the Class Action Fairness Act began, senior counsel for the Consumers Union, Sally Greenberg observed that:

"It's a radical effort by the corporate community to restructure the court system to an environment they think is going to be better for them."

Political observers have suggested that although the GOP may have enough votes to pass the legislation, Democrats in the Senate are likely to piggy-back measures such as an increase in the minimum wage onto the bill, in order to secure a vote on the party's key issues.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, CAFA has been bouncing around the capital for at least a year (and if it is the same CAFA that was introduced in 1999, defeated, and re-introduced in 2001 and stalled, then I suppose even "quasi-hopeful" is a stretch.

(In an aside, the above-mentioned Consumers Union is a laff riot -- check out their site here. I love it when people try to solve a problem by making it bigger.)

wilheim

As one of the millions of Americans who lack health coverage, I can assure you I don't give a crap about the issue in the very least, and not because of my stacks -- frankly given the cost of health care these days I'm sure if anything major happened to me I'd burn right through those stacks like they were made of, um, well, paper, which of course they are. It's a shame that some people are sick and/or incapacitated due to medical problems compounded by their financial situation. Health care would not be so expensive for the uninsured if the government-corporate fascist system that is currently in place in the U.S. were scrapped -- however, as long as folks over 50 make up the majority of the income and voter base (and they do, and the proportion is increasing) there will always be Medicare, and as long as there is Medicare, there will be a corrupt and insane healthcare system in the U.S. that ranks right up with all the greatest 'Twighlight Zone' episodes -- more money than any two countries put together, medical technology that is on par with science fiction of just two decades ago, superabundance in virtually every aspect of our lives, and nobody can get decent health care because two Band-Aids and a squirt of Bactine at the emergency room costs $ 28,000.00 , or $ 25.00 plus a $ 15.00 copay on the Bactine if you have Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

It's completely, utterly insane, the system we have in place in America. I just don't think that the federal government, which created the current system and the failed one it replaced, should be screwing around with trying to have another go at it.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
Phaedrus - To be honest I don't have the answer to the health care problem (who does). Personally I have 100% coverage as a war time vet. My sister however does not, and only recently after getting promoted at her middle management job became eligible for company health insurance. I can remember helping her out a little to have some tests run a few years ago, and her perdicament has bothered me since. She told just last month she finally has coverage, I am quite relieved for her, she is 54. When something like no health insurance when needed, or sending a young son or nephew to war on the other side of the world hits close to home it can be an eye opening, and frightening experience.

wil.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
eek

Try digging before you post. Tons of Americans expatriate every year, some for a brief while, and some permanently. Having a lot of money does not necessarily empower one to just pull up stumps and go -- and having an income in the range of $128k to 200k does not necessarily make one have a lot of money either.

I am a member of a few online expat commuities myself, as I spend a substantial amount of time abroad and on the road in general. Most are frankly not the sort the country needs to lose too many of (for that matter, neither am I.) That is why President Clinton enacted legislation during his administration that actually punishes Americans who are thought to be leaving the country "for the wrong reason" (i.e. to get out of the insane over-taxation of the upper-middle class and strike out to greener pastures.) One of the smarter things Slick Willie did imho, since he understood that too much of the wrong kind of drain can really screw up a country in the long run.

Tell me something -- while you scoff at the (apparent) lack of people leaving the US, can you explain why Congress shits its pants every couple of years trying to figure out ways to tax Americans living abroad (we are one of just a tiny handful of nations that taxes its citizens on their worldwide income, even if they leave and never plan on coming back [some exemptions do apply, but still -- the idea is apalling; surely you can agree with me on that.]) While you say "if they cared about the taxes all that much they'd leave," which seems to imply that you think they aren't leaving, can you explain why the outflow was apparently severe enough back in '96-'97 that they started charging an "exit tax" to try to discourage people from leaving? (i.e. "Well, if you're leaving because of the oppressive tax regime, I'm afraid that's going to be a taxable event sir.")

East Germany had similar notions about its people, albeit with a less friendly face. Honecker claimed not that the GDR actually "owned" its citizens, but that it had a "substantial investment" in them, and that the nation would suffer economic consequences if they all ran over the wall to try to live like humans.

And guess what? We're just repeating ourselves here over and over again. Isn't that great?

According to The Cambridge Ancient History of Rome, towards the end of the decline
of the empire --

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Thus began the fierce endeavour of the State to squeeze the population to the last drop. Since economic resources fell short of what was needed, the strong fought to secure the chief share for themselves with a violence and unscrupulousness well in keeping with the origin of those in power and with a soldiery accusotmed to plunder. The full rigour of the law was let loose on the population. Soldiers acted as bailiffs or wandered as secret police through the land. Those who suffered the most were, of course, the propertied class. It was relatively easy to lay hands on their property, and in an emergency, they were the class from whom something could be extorted most frequently and quickly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(emphasis added)

See, this leads to a funny conflict. Funny for me at least, since I'll be on the winning team. The savage mentality which statists have never quite been able to shake from themselves has not evolved them one whit in thousands of years of social evolution. Capitalism, on the other hand, in addition to just generally, massively, collectively improving the quality of life of everyone on earth in the last century, has also imbued the ideological descendents of the Roman "propertied class" with the technical and practical means to liberty absent the approval of the state. While it is true that relatively few of those descendents avail themselves of the advantages available to them, in time it will become painfully apparent that they are about to become history's bitches once again, and I honestly believe that you're going to see them disappearing into the woodwork in droves -- as I suggested here, a sort of Atlas Shurgged scenario without the Gulch.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,228
Tokens
Initial dig result, (will get details on foreign ownership later.)


http://www.debito.org/naturalization2.html

Well, no. The American passport has nothing to do with Japan. The passport of any country is the property of the issuing government, and the Japanese government, short of formally charging you with a crime, cannot confiscate it or deprive you of it in any way. That includes naturalization into Japan--surrendering the passport is not part of the procedure. Moreover, as far as the US is concerned, the renouncing of US citizenship can only take place with a formal written request signed by you, or if a US court convicts you of treason, espionage, or serving in a foreign government or foreign armed forces.

Now for the news. I'm happy (kinda) to report that Americans, in fact and in particular, have an unusually hard job giving up their American citizenship. Fukuzawan MG FAXed me a fascinating article from the ASIAN WALL STREET JOURNAL (Dec 29, 1998), which holds that the American government doesn't want you to renounce, and will actually punish you if you do.

Why? Because the US, like only two other countries in the world (The Philippines and Eritrea), insists on taxing its citizens abroad. And if you try to renounce (say, because you don't want to pay taxes on lands you have in France that you would like to pass along to your French children), they will treat you like a tax dodger, with sanctions including blacklisting you in the Federal Registry, denying you reentry into the US indefinitely, and taxing your projected US earnings for the next ten years after renouncing.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,917
Tokens
Profiling I see, not surprized, ignorance and bigotry are easily disguised with phony patriotism.

Bigotry??? Actually there was a pretty good mix of poor whites, blacks and latinos in the emergency room the days I was there. I just figured they probably voted Democratic because liberalism fails to provide incentives to succeed and only ends up in poor people becoming dependent on the government their entire lifetime.

As far as profiling goes we all know how the liberals handcuffed the cops by not allowing them to investigate the four black guys at 2AM behind the jewelry store or conversely the four white kids in their daddy's BMW hanging around a known drug dealing area at midnight. But after 9/11 the libs were the first ones to be screaming "Why aren't we watching for Arab looking people on these flights!"
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,917
Tokens
Now back on healthcare,

I heard a pretty neat analysis of the healthcare cost issue (I think it was Limbaugh)
He said instead of health insurance substitute the words hotel/motel insurance. No matter where you go on vacation, you'd be covered for your hotel/motel. Well what would happen? People would end up staying at the Four Seasons...who the heck is going to stay at Motel 6 when there's no incentive not to.

That is what is happening with healthcare along with people like the trial lawyers making the doctors insurance so costly that they give up the practice.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,228
Tokens
It looks like there are foreign ownership restrictions on various industries.

Media.
Telecomms
Airlines
Dealing with the Gov
Defence stuff

I dont know what your restrictions are (if any) on foreign ownership of Banking, financial services, energy, water, argiculture, high-tech industries, real estate etc are.

It looks like its far more profitable and gives you more opportunities if you stay as a citizen...even with those dreaded taxes..
icon_wink.gif
.

And I though the rich stayed because they enjoyed paying taxes, oh well.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,228
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SENDITIN:
Now back on healthcare,

I heard a pretty neat analysis of the healthcare cost issue (I think it was Limbaugh)
He said instead of health insurance substitute the words hotel/motel insurance. No matter where you go on vacation, you'd be covered for your hotel/motel. Well what would happen? People would end up staying at the Four Seasons...who the heck is going to stay at Motel 6 when there's no incentive not to.

That is what is happening with healthcare along with people like the trial lawyers making the doctors insurance so costly that they give up the practice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats just smokescreening.

A decent system in the US, (like the NHS in the UK) would create a network of perfectly clean and capable holiday inns across the US.

The vested interests in private healthcare are your biggest barrier.
15% of GDP is a lot of dosh being raped from the US economy..
(Its 10% GDP where I live, and we're ALL covered 24/7, 365 days, til the day you die.)
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,903
Messages
13,575,005
Members
100,883
Latest member
iniesta2025
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com