It Is Time To Destroy All Of Iraq To Save It

[petre]

IT IS TIME TO DESTROY ALL OF IRAQ TO SAVE IT...i for one am against pissing away 5-10 years of usa's treasure and young lives for the iraqui asswipes, a corrupt and base people that will never know "democracy", despite the protestations of the wilsonian idealist bush...

the iraquis don't even get off their ass to kill the so-called insurgents, foreigners spreading destruction and killing their own people...what a waste this misadventure, it was better off with saddam, as the iraquis are proving each day they deserved saddam after all.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Democracy starts from within ... not by dropping 150,00
troops into a Muslim country ....

Bush was forewarned by many including his own father
of not making this move ....

The insurgents know they can hit and run and hit and run
for years if neeed ...

 

[TheGeneral+]

Sure, if you want a WW3 where you will be standing in line to get a bowl of beans.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Screw em ...

Let the Iraqis get a football team together and let em play the Miami Dolphins ...

Iraqis win and we leave Iraq ....

 

[Shotgun]

IT IS TIME TO DESTROY ALL OF IRAQ TO SAVE IT...i for one am against pissing away 5-10 years of usa's treasure and young lives for the iraqui asswipes, a corrupt and base people that will never know "democracy", despite the protestations of the wilsonian idealist bush...

the iraquis don't even get off their ass to kill the so-called insurgents, foreigners spreading destruction and killing their own people...what a waste this misadventure, it was better off with saddam, as the iraquis are proving each day they deserved saddam after all.

Are you aware of the hundreds of Iraqis that have been killed while lining up to joined the military, police force and other governmental agencies? I understand how much fun it is to *****, moan and complain about the world today, but it isn't all doom and gloom unless your goal is an Iraq that caters to terrorists. Try reading some of this:

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004/11/good-news-from-iraq-part-14.html

Cheer up Petre. Life is good. Enjoy it.

 

[Stryker]

IMAGINE the US invaded by a foreign country.

IMAGINE bombs raining down on anywhere USA, causing death and destruction in proportion to the 100,000+ civilian death toll in Iraq, (the equvialent of over 1 million American dead - mostly women and children no less).

IMAGINE having to bury your son, your daughter or your entire family in your garden because a so called 'precision guided ordinance' has literally slammed home (whoops) therein wiping out the remaining reasons for you to live.

IMAGINE this happening to your friends, your neighbors or even the family in Apt. D that you kind of 'bump' into on the way up the stairs in Philly, Cleveland, Houston or Portland.

IMAGINE your friends and family being rounded up and tortured as sanctioned by top levels of the agressor administration - breaking the norms of international conventions to which itself has signed and holding no decision makers accountable while the world watches without recourse.

IMAGINE knowing that the agressor country is in yours illegally, having manipulated its own foreign and domestic intelligence so that the adminsitration responsible could effectively LIE to the world, let alone its OWN PEOPLE in it's quest to take control of your resources.

IMAGINE knowing that said agressor country won't let its people watch an alternate news source or outright buries/bans the details of your destruction (no one gets to see the cockpit reel of the F16's GBU homing in on a group of innocent people to the sound of "Ahhh... DUDE" over the mike).

IMAGINE all of the above happening in your world then ask yourself the following...

JUST HOW FAST ARE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY GOING TO BE MAKING A TRIP TO THE NEAREST WAL-MART FOR A SHINY NEW AK-47 AND SOME SERIOUS PAYBACK???

INSURGENT or IRAQI?

WAKE UP!

 

[Shotgun]

Stryker, do you sing John Lennon at the Karoke Bar down the street?

Imagine these facts from the latest Iraqi poll:

"63% of Iraqis say that the withdrawal of American and allied forces will not be in the best interest of Iraq, it will undermine the work towards security and control of the country. 27% say that it would be in the best interest of Iraq. 9% had no opinion.

"58% say that terrorists do the kidnappings and assassination of police and soldiers. 9% say that patriots fighting for Iraq carry them out. 32% say ignorant Iraqis who have been brain washed & misled carry them out.

"89% said that the terrorism, kidnapping, beheadings and assassination of police and security forces do not help the freeing of Iraq and the building of a stable country. 6% said that it would help free Iraq and build stability. 4% had no opinion."


That doesn't quite conform with your sense of reality does it?

 

[RobFunk]

they just showed footage on the news. in the reporters words "these are not men. these are boys. baby faced and fresh out of high school" then they showed clips of the marines and its true some of their bodys arent fully developed and they had baby faces no doubt while they fired machine guns and other heavy weaponry at the insurgents. crazy stuff man

 

[Marco]

Reality is that you'd find out how many people had guns in this country if a foreign army decided to invade.

As in Stryker's vision, over ther they're called "insurgents"

Over here citizens fighting against an invading force would be called "patriotic".

Just a difference of opinion, depending on which side of the invading army you are on.

 

[Shotgun]

Reality is that you'd find out how many people had guns in this country if a foreign army decided to invade.

As in Stryker's vision, over ther they're called "insurgents"

Over here citizens fighting against an invading force would be called "patriotic".

Just a difference of opinion, depending on which side of the invading army you are on.

Marco, if you don't understand the difference between an elected government like the United States and a Saddam-led dictatorship like Iraq, there isn't much help for you.

But feel free to equate the two all you like. Understand, however, that comments like yours simply highlights just how out of touch your opinion is.

 

[SportSavant]

shotgun....

did they poll any IRAQI's as to wether or not they wanted the USA to unilaterally enter their country to overthrow Saddam?

or do you think they would have rather done it on their own.... even if it took another 200 years?

:finger:

 

[Marco]

"How out of touch your opinion is...."

Maybe I'm like a great number of people in this country who don't believe in wasting hundreds of billions of dollars trying to bring peace to an area of the planet that has been in turmoil since the crusades.....

If we're going to liberate every country everytime a dictator or someone comes into power that brings along a briefcase that doesn't contain democracy, then we are going to run this practically bankrupt country into financial extinction. This will be a fulltime job, with plenty of overtime, and no vacations.

Send your own sons to liberate these nonconformist countries, send your own dollars down the toilet in worthless, useless causes like these, because I'm tired of seeing politicians waste time and money on these causes when there are more pressing issues inside THIS country that demand addressing for the future of our own democracy to exist.

It's time for our elected leaders to take care of the country that elected them into thier lofty position and thier full pay retirement package, that they so conveniently voted in for themselves.

It's time to think about the rest of the country for once. Fvck Iraq, plain and simple.

 

[SportSavant]

Marco,

the reality is that your country does not care about liberating any country..... UNLESS.... they have a large OIL reserve or something else to offer....

USA will make money off of this war as they will explot IRAQI oil reserves to their own benefit....

If the USA really cared about humanity why dont they Unilaterally go into SUDAN & do something about that mess? no OIL... thats why....

 

[JDeuce]

Canadian outrage. Cute. Like an angry toddler, except less imposing.

USA will make money off of this war as they will explot IRAQI oil reserves to their own benefit....

Oil? Christ...you're still out there? Even Bill Clinton came out and said this war wasn't about that. If this was about oil, considering that the taking was VERY good during the oil for food (fraud?) program that Saddam headed, why in the hell would we have wanted to go to war with him when we could have gotten cheap oil? Why not just strike a deal with Saddam...and use the billions we spent on the war buying oil instead? Wouldn't that have made much more sense?

But if you're still convinced it's all about oil, please feel free to list the record profits realized by American oil companies since the war began...

 

[lander]

JDunce,
Isn't the theory with the oil that after we conrol Iraq that we will profit? I'm not sure anyone would have said "let's start a quagmire so we can take their oil" ... just silly post doesn't add pal.

 

[JDeuce]

Isn't the theory with the oil that after we conrol Iraq that we will profit?


Then why didn't that happen the first time we went there in 1991? Was it not about oil back then, but somehow is now?

You still haven't answered my other question: assuming oil is our sole interest there, why go to war with an oil rich country instead of making a backroom deal with a guy who is clearly not above shady oil deals? Do you really believe Exxon and BP are going to set up shop there immediately after the military has everything in order?

 

[lander]

JDunce,
Oil isn't my theory -- I was just pointing out the falacies in your argument.

I suspect there were a variety of reasons involved, including (perhaps) oil.

I'll elaborate when it's not football Sunday.

GL.

 

[xpanda]

JDunce,
Oil isn't my theory -- I was just pointing out the falacies in your argument.

I suspect there were a variety of reasons involved, including (perhaps) oil.

According to George Friedman of www.stratfor.com, author of America's Secret War, the war in Iraq is about two principle things:

1. demonstrating to the Arab public that American might is unchallengable and that joining AQ would be joining the 'losing side', and;

2. forcing the Saudis' hand to cooperate with the US (they were sandwiched between rising Wahabism in Saudi Arabia [instigating private donor funds to AQ] and their historical relationship with the US and the Bushes).

It's certainly obvious that the war had nothing to do with WMD or democracy or the plight of the Iraqi people. It's basically all geopolitics.

What the US didn't count on was the degree of Iranian support for the Shiite population. This support was so entrenched that the Shiite population (via Chalabi and Al Sistani and other clerics) had already been organised to form a government in the event of Saddam's fall (with or without US intervention -- the Iranians believed it was only a matter of time until Saddam was toppled.) The US wasn't prepared for Saddam's post-war guerrilla assault via the Sunnis, nor were they prepared for the Shias to be fully prepared to form their own government with or without American support. The Iranians wanted to see neither an American-installed government nor a Sunni-controlled government right next door. (Incidentally, this is the principle cause for tensions between Iran and the US at the moment, not Iran's nuclear ambitions, though that is obviously problematic as well.) Iran was prepared to help the US with AQ if they allowed the majority of gov't officials to be Iranian-ordained Shias. The US initially complied, but changed their minds when they no longer thought they needed widespread Shia support.

I strongly recommend the aforementioned book. It probably won't change your mind on the merits of this war (certainly has not changed mine) but it answers the question of why? and provides hints of what else is to come in the region. Incidentally, according to Friedman, Pakistan is the next major 'problem' to be dealt with. Musharaff's problem is similar to the Saudis' -- being sandwiched between the need to cooperate with the US for national survivability and the need to appease Islamics who sympathise with AQ's intentions for regime survivability.

Empire is a tricky business.

 

[petre]

xpanda, thanks always for your informative posts and the latest regarding the friedman book. i read the epilogue and it explains succinctly the reasons why usa is in iraq and will be there for the next 20 years...

it brings to mind vietnam, sold to the USA public as a war to stop communism, 50,000 usa deaths, million vietnamese killed, a war the USA lost on the ground but i guess won geopolitically as the soviets and chinese failed to establish a sphere of influence in south east asia.

i started this thread with this eye catching title to get the intelligent feedback you and some others bring, and to try to inform the manipulated flag wavers of their naivety.

unfortunately, i don't know whether the geopolitical goals of the USA can be achieved in the muslim world as this 1/3 of the world's population are in a fascistic cult, not amenable to democracy or capitalism, which eventually took root in south east asia.

 

[JDeuce]

XP,

Thats fine that Friedman has his opinion, but that is only one opinion. One other question he does answer interesingly:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=350 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Q. What is the main point of your book?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>A. The United States is winning the war that began on September 11, 2001. At this point, Al Qaeda and the Islamist extremists are on the ropes.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Based on that answer, he has to believe that Iraq did have connections with terrorism. Otherwise, he never would have brought it up.

Even though he offers strategic consulting services, I don't think he knows everything there is to know about the war in Iraq. In fact, I don't think that our government has laid out every single detail of why we went to war yet, but eventually will when the time is right. Here are my random thoughts on the war:

- I don't think Saddam knew about 9/11.
- I see Iraq as the bug-light to draw some of these terrorist shitheads into the open, and an operation that took down another terrorist in Saddam (read up on his $25k payments to families of suicide bombers...paid from money gained through the oil for fraud program no less). Therefore...
- I see Iraq as a front in a wider war.
- I think we are winning the war.
- I think it will be a long war.
- I think we'll be hit by terrorism again.
- I think it won't be anyone's fault but the people that did it.
- I blame neither Bush nor Clinton for 9/11.
- I blame bin Laden.

Argue if you like. Anyways, you go on to say...

The US wasn't prepared for Saddam's post-war guerrilla assault via the Sunnis,

I'd say they may not have expected it at the level it has happened, but they're certainly not 'unprepared.' If they were, we wouldn't have steamrolled through Fallujah so easily when we finally got tired of ******* around with these guys.

I seem to be alone in the view that it won't be hearts and minds that ends our whole conflict with the Mideast. It'll be force of arms. That's what ended fascism...and I think it'll be the only way we stop Islamofascism. We need to wipe out the bad guys, rebuild, and let the locals administer the place with the understanding that any bullshit will be met with overwhelming force.

I don't think the Islamofascists truly comprehended what they were up against, but they're slowly finding out.

But we've been well past the point of everyone sitting down at a conference table, rationally negotiating over muffins and orange juice...