Iraq: Time to pull out ....

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docmercer--banned

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Staying What Course?
[font=arial,sans-serif]by Paul Krugman

[font=arial,sans-serif]Link to Article[/font]

[font=arial,sans-serif]Is there any point, now that November's election is behind us, in revisiting the history of the Iraq war? Yes: any path out of the quagmire will be blocked by people who call their opponents weak on national security, and portray themselves as tough guys who will keep America safe. So it's important to understand how the tough guys made America weak.

There has been notably little U.S. coverage of the "Downing Street memo" - actually the minutes of a British prime minister's meeting on July 23, 2002, during which officials reported on talks with the Bush administration about Iraq. But the memo, which was leaked to The Times of London during the British election campaign, confirms what apologists for the war have always denied: the Bush administration cooked up a case for a war it wanted.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 align=right><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 bgColor=#eeeeee><TBODY><TR><TD><!-- BEGIN BURST! CODE --><!-- /* Copyright 1997-2003 BURST! Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved. (Version 1.0F) */ --><!-- END BURST! CODE --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Here's a sample: "Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and W.M.D. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

(You can read the whole thing at www.downingstreetmemo.com.)

Why did the administration want to invade Iraq, when, as the memo noted, "the case was thin" and Saddam's "W.M.D. capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea, or Iran"? Iraq was perceived as a soft target; a quick victory there, its domestic political advantages aside, could serve as a demonstration of American military might, one that would shock and awe the world.

But the Iraq war has, instead, demonstrated the limits of American power, and emboldened our potential enemies. Why should Kim Jong Il fear us, when we can't even secure the road from Baghdad to the airport?

At this point, the echoes of Vietnam are unmistakable. Reports from the recent offensive near the Syrian border sound just like those from a 1960's search-and-destroy mission, body count and all. Stories filed by reporters actually with the troops suggest that the insurgents, forewarned, mostly melted away, accepting battle only where and when they chose.

Meanwhile, America's strategic position is steadily deteriorating.

Next year, reports Jane's Defense Industry, the United States will spend as much on defense as the rest of the world combined. Yet the Pentagon now admits that our military is having severe trouble attracting recruits, and would have difficulty dealing with potential foes - those that, unlike Saddam's Iraq, might pose a real threat.

In other words, the people who got us into Iraq have done exactly what they falsely accused Bill Clinton of doing: they have stripped America of its capacity to respond to real threats.

So what's the plan?

The people who sold us this war continue to insist that success is just around the corner, and that things would be fine if the media would just stop reporting bad news. But the administration has declared victory in Iraq at least four times. January's election, it seems, was yet another turning point that wasn't.

Yet it's very hard to discuss getting out. Even most of those who vehemently opposed the war say that we have to stay on in Iraq now that we're there.

In effect, America has been taken hostage. Nobody wants to take responsibility for the terrible scenes that will surely unfold if we leave (even though terrible scenes are unfolding while we're there). Nobody wants to tell the grieving parents of American soldiers that their children died in vain. And nobody wants to be accused, by an administration always ready to impugn other people's patriotism, of stabbing the troops in the back.

But the American military isn't just bogged down in Iraq; it's deteriorating under the strain. We may already be in real danger: what threats, exactly, can we make against the North Koreans? That John Bolton will yell at them? And every year that the war goes on, our military gets weaker.

So we need to get beyond the clichés - please, no more "pottery barn principles" or "staying the course." I'm not advocating an immediate pullout, but we have to tell the Iraqi government that our stay is time-limited, and that it has to find a way to take care of itself. The point is that something has to give. We either need a much bigger army - which means a draft - or we need to find a way out of Iraq. [/font]

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EverFresh

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Sad but very true, I'm afraid.
 

Shotgun

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If Krugman says it, it must be wrong.

You guys do realize that Al Queda is now running the terrorist campaign over there. They may or may not have been there under Saddam, but now they are. Does that matter to you?
 
docmercer--banned

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Shotgun:

Our kids are dying every day in a war Bush started with lies and no exit strategy ... Al-Queda was a big problem before Bush invaded Iraq with training camps all over the world

We are fighting a Religious War against fanatics
 

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doc mercer said:
Shotgun:

Our kids are dying every day in a war Bush started with lies and no exit strategy ... Al-Queda was a big problem before Bush invaded Iraq with training camps all over the world

We are fighting a Religious War against fanatics

So Doc...do we quit going after Al Queda?
 
JinnRikki

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Shotgun said:
If Krugman says it, it must be wrong.

You guys do realize that Al Queda is now running the terrorist campaign over there. They may or may not have been there under Saddam, but now they are. Does that matter to you?
I have saved this to a text file, every time you start your Iraq is a just war because we had to stop terrorism diatribe I will post this as a reminder. And just because you qualify it with a "may or may not have been there" means little. You have just provided a large reasonable doubt to take this country to war.
 
docmercer--banned

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Shotgun:

We are @ war with Wahhabism - the violent form of Islam

You wanna to cut the snakes head off, start focusing on Saudi Arabia and shut down our borders
 
TheRightWing

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I looked up the definition of "Traitor".....found this

paulkrugman.jpg
 

Shotgun

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doc mercer said:
Shotgun:

We are @ war with Wahhabism - the violent form of Islam

You wanna to cut the snakes head off, start focusing on Saudi Arabia and shut down our borders

What does 'focusing on Saudi Arabia' mean? Attack? Spank?

And do we let Al Queda/Zarquari go?
 

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JinnRikki said:
I have saved this to a text file, every time you start your Iraq is a just war because we had to stop terrorism diatribe I will post this as a reminder. And just because you qualify it with a "may or may not have been there" means little. You have just provided a large reasonable doubt to take this country to war.

Will you scour my past postings and point to me where I said we went to war with Iraq solely to stop terrorism?
 
xpanda

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Shotgun said:
You guys do realize that Al Queda is now running the terrorist campaign over there. They may or may not have been there under Saddam, but now they are. Does that matter to you?

With all due respect, since they were NOT running the show pre-war, the question should be: Does this matter to YOU?
 
JinnRikki

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Will you scour my past postings and point to me where I said we went to war with Iraq solely to stop terrorism?
Nope, I won't. You may not have said solely terrorism. Are you saying that was never a consideration with you. And if not what is a bigger reason in your mind to attack Iraq?
 

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xpanda said:
With all due respect, since they were NOT running the show pre-war, the question should be: Does this matter to YOU?

I may misunderstand your question, but the fact that Al Queda and Wahhibbism (throwing Doc a bone) are behind most of the attacks changes the dynamic. If the bombings were simply Iraqi Shiite vs Iraqi Sunni, a reasonable argument could be made to pull out and let the bastards settle it themselves. But for the most part the two factions have behaved OK towards each other.

Al Queda has chosen its battleground. Pulling out now would be a disaster for the entire region.
 
xpanda

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You and I both know that AQ did not 'choose' their battleground. Rather, the US built them a brand new stadium to play in.

It seems to me that you're using the clusterf•ck that Bush created to justify creating that clusterf•ck in the first place.
 
JinnRikki

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Shotgun
But for the most part the two factions have behaved OK towards each other.
Not only does this fly in the face of all known recent history but it ignores the fact that fears of a civil war are expressed every day by those in the know In Iraq.
 
docmercer--banned

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I would tell em to get their **** together or America is going drop Roseanne Barr and Rosie O'Donnell into Iraq and have em screw every Iraqi insurgent ....
 
Polaris

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America pulling out of Iraq at this stage would be a far bigger mistake than invading it in the first place.

The best reason that I heard for invading Afghanistan (the country Bush invaded before invading Iraq) was that Afghanistan was a source of instability in the region. The Taleban government at the time allowed terrorist training camps to flourish, the new trainees terroists would then go aboard to cause havoc.

Today, after the American two years after toppling Saddam, Iraq is the biggest source of instablity in the region, and probably even a bigger source of instablity that Afghanistan was.

If America leaves Iraq in such a state of civil war & chaos, Iraq will be the source for Ismalic fantanicalism and instability perhaps 10 times moreso than Afghanistan was.

Pulling out of Iraq is a pipe dream at this time!
 
Polaris

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doc mercer said:
I would tell em to get their **** together or America is going drop Roseanne Barr and Rosie O'Donnell into Iraq and have em screw every Iraqi insurgent ....
guess the insurgents will line up in a very long line to get some of that piece of ass ... lots to go around too :icon_conf :hump:
 

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