If derivatives are worth 10x the worlds output how can you unwind this shit and not..

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bushman
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...tank the entire world system.

(Link followed from another poster in here.)

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A £516 trillion derivatives 'time-bomb'

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<!--proximic_content_on-->The market is worth more than $516 trillion, (£303 trillion), roughly 10 times the value of the entire world's output: it's been called the "ticking time-bomb".
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<!--proximic_content_on-->It's a market in which the lead protagonists – typically aggressive, highly educated, and now wealthy young men – have flourished in the derivatives boom. But it's a market that is set to come to a crashing halt – the Great Unwind has begun.
Last week the beginning of the end started for many hedge funds with the combination of diving market values and worried investors pulling out their cash for safer climes.
Some of the world's biggest hedge funds – SAC Capital, Lone Pine and Tiger Global – all revealed they were sitting on double-digit losses this year. September's falls wiped out any profits made in the rest of the year. Polygon, once a darling of the London hedge fund circuit, last week said it was capping the basic salaries of its managers to £100,000 each. Not bad for the average punter but some way off the tens of millions plundered by these hotshots during the good times. But few will be shedding any tears.
The complex and opaque derivatives markets in which these hedge funds played has been dubbed the world's biggest black hole because they operate outside of the grasp of governments, tax inspectors and regulators. They operate in a parallel, shadow world to the rest of the banking system. They are private contracts between two companies or institutions which can't be controlled or properly assessed. In themselves derivative contracts are not dangerous, but if one of them should go wrong – the bad 2 per cent as it's been called – then it is the domino effect which could be so enormous and scary.
Most markets have something behind them. Central banks require reserves – something that backs up the transaction. But derivatives don't have anything – because they are not real money, but paper money. It is also impossible to establish their worth – the $516 trillion number is actually only a notional one. In the mid-Nineties, Nick Leeson lost Barings £1.3bn trading in derivatives, and the bank went bust. In 1998 hedge fund LTCM's $5bn loss nearly brought down the entire system. In fragile times like this, another LTCM could have catastrophic results.
That is why everyone is now so frightened, even the traders, who are desperately trying to unwind their positions but finding it impossible because trading is so volatile and it's difficult to find counterparties. Nor have the hedge funds been in the slightest bit interested in succumbing to normal rules: of the world's thousands of hedge funds only 24 have volunteered to sign up to a code of conduct.
Few understand how this world operates. The US Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke, tapped up some of Wall Street's best for a primer on their workings when he took the job a few years ago. Britain's financial regulator, the Financial Services Authority, has long talked about the problems the markets could face on the back of derivative complexity. Unfortunately it did little to curb the products' growth.
In America the naysayers have been rather more vocal for longer. Famously, Warren Buffett, the billionaire who made his money the old-fashioned way, called them "weapons of mass destruction". In the late 1990s when confidence was roaring in the midst of the dotcom boom, a small band of politicians, uncomfortable with the ease with which banks would be allowed to play in these burgeoning markets, were painted as Luddites failing to move with the times.
Little-known Democratic senator Byron Dorgan from North Dakota was one of the most vociferous refuseniks, telling his supposedly more savvy New York peers of the dangers. "If you want to gamble, go to Las Vegas. If you want to trade in derivatives, God bless you," he said. He was ignored.
What is a Derivative?
Warren Buffett, the American investment guru, dubbed them "financial weapons of mass destruction", but for the once-great-and-good of Wall Street they were the currency that enabled banks, hedge funds and other speculators to make billions.
Anything that carries a price can spawn a derivatives market. They are financial contracts sold to pass on risk to others. The credit or bond derivatives market is one such example. It is thought that speculation in this area alone is worth more than $56 trillion (£33 trillion), although that probably underestimates the true figure since lax regulation has seen the market explode over the past two years.
At the core of this market is the credit derivative swap, effectively an insurance policy against the default in the interest payment on a corporate bond. One doesn't even need to own the bond itself. It is like Joe Public buying an insurance policy on someone else's house and pocketing the full value if it burns down.
As markets slid into crisis, and banks and corporations began to default on bond payments, many of these policies have proved worthless.
Emilio Botin, the chairman of Santander, the Spanish bank that has enjoyed phenomenal success during the credit crunch, once said: "I never invest in something I don't understand." A wise man, you may think.
Simon Evans
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/a-163516-trillion-derivatives-timebomb-958699.html
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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they have value they just implode if somebody goes tits up

like leh going under caused 600 billions in losses it was estimated

so the government gonna save the banks and take them off their hands and their value will recover assuming they can save all the big important guys from declaring bankrupcy

like AIG, WM, WB, BSC the reason that did what they did is to avoid the lehman ending

its just leveraged insurence shit and the 516 trillion number doesn't hit unless every single bank goes under and the whole pyramid scheme collapses

this is the armaggdon we go to a bartering society extremely extremely low probability situation
 
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bushman
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But how much of this 500 trillion is real??

Who's paying who?

Should the taxpayer even go NEAR this crap??

Especially since it's quite obviously funny munny.


Looks like the ultimate Nigerian scam to me and taxpayer money should simply stay away.

Let the system crash and start a new system. The old system is broke.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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its leveraged

once the banks themselves deleverage the derivatives do as well

honestly i really don't fully understand the mechanism and how the numbers get that big

its complex

what i do know is these things have value and the losses associated with them are only a problem if they go under

and the reason their value/demand is really low now is because they are at risk of going under

i'm not really sure how you dissolve them over time or if they just hang around and you gotta make sure these big banks never go under ever....

either way its a huge problem that will take many many years to work out

and the banks lending will continue to be hampered in a big way for many many years

but i do think intervention can save the market from completely imploding....the armaggedon scenerio
 

bushman
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I know its leveraging Tiz.

They've leveraged the entire output of planet earth by 1000%

Now how in gods name can anyone pay out on that???

:nohead:
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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i think the problem is its all interconnected

between the various banks and they are all leveraged out the ass

so if somebody goes tits up another party can't pay up or whatever

i think there was a decent explaination by C-gold a while back in the sell, sell, sell thread but i'm not gonna dig through it to find it

bottom line as long as we don't have tons of bankrupcies in these leveraged/CDS guys like LEH

we are safe from complete financial armaggedon

they are only triggered under bankrupcy filing and ripple through the entire system

like LEH triggered a few MM funds breaking the buck
 

bushman
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That's what I find weird about this fantasy numbers stuff.

If the bank has my mortgage for $50,000 then it's worth no more than $100,000 over 25 years.

So how have these guys managed to give it a value of $250,000+ ???

And when it all goes tits up in the markets, like at the moment, the government/Fed shouldn't be paying out one red cent more than the principle amount, which is $50,000.
 

Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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Fucking W, he's one sly mutha fukur. Amazing the things he came up with.

Nice post eek.
 

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Eekster once again manages to focus on one of the most critical bits of information among all the noise, smoke, and mirrors out there.

A credit default swap is a bet between two parties that a certain debt will go into default. There is not a whole lot more about them that needs to be known. Yeah, pricing is complicated, as are the actual components of the debt, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the thing.

Just because a debt is worth $500k or whatever, there is nothing to stop two people from placing a $10M bet on whether or not it goes into default. That's what's happening here. Investment houses, insurance comapanies and banks are betting against each other on whether or not an average Joe's mortgage goes into default.

They did so many of these bets that they forgot to check whether they had enough to cover it in case they lost more than a small percentage of them.

Thing that's not mentioned, though, is that for every one of these bets, there's a winner and a loser. All the focus is on bailing out the loser but no one is asking about the winner, who quietly collects his winnings at the expense of the taxpayer/average Joe.

The simple fact that there is $500T in total bets is not the reason for the problems. If everyone holding bets had roughly the same number of winners and losers, the bets could be settled without any disruption. The thing causing the problems is that there are some really big losers out there that lost so much they would go under without a bailout. There are also big winners, but no one's talking about them as it wouldn't satisfy anyone's agenda.
 

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Taking it a step further, all the theft from the masses, even in unprecented creative ways like these swaps, is not going to be the downfall of the system in and of itself. Most of us are capable of producing enough with our work that we can get half of it stolen from us systematically and we'll still do fine.

It's the demographic trends that will do the trick. Those who are OK with keeping only half of the fruits of their labor are a dying breed. They aren't having enough babies to sustain their numbers. Meanwhile, those who gain from the theft are multiplying like rabbits. THAT's going to be what does in the economic system as we know it. Exactly what form it will take is anyone's guess, but it really doesn't matter. Best way to prepare = buy gold/silver and prepare your kids and grandkids for some ugly, bloody conflict with hopefully a new and improved system emerging thereafter.
 

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LIQUID ASSETS

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Delta Airlines one year ago,
you would have $49.00 today.

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in AIG one year ago, you would
have $33.00 today.

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Lehman Brothers one year
ago, you would have $0.00 today.


But, if you had purchased $1,000 worth of beer one year ago, drank
all the beer, then turned in the aluminum cans for recycling refund,
you would have received $214.00.

Based on the above, the best current investment plan is to drink
heavily and recycle. It is called the 401-Keg.

A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year. Another study found that Americans drink, on average, 22
gallons of alcohol a year. So, on average, Americans get about 41
miles to the gallon!
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
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Fucking W, he's one sly mutha fukur. Amazing the things he came up with.

Nice post eek.

Overleveraged derivatives and their lack of regulation existed well before Bush, Willie.
 

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