I'd be tempted to make a deal with the Devil....

[Conan]

I am no union guy by far but if these players organizations (presumably with the intent to form a labor union) can get under the NCAA's skin with the "Fab 4" taking on Northwestern and an NCAA that refuses to own up to all of the greed and avarice and downright theft of a young man's rights in order to materially gain from the use of players' personal images and no less their own God-given talents (as they have freely done for years) then let's get this party started.

The National Labor relations Board has ruled in favor of the Northwestern football players and the College Athletes Players Association (CAPA) and the National College Players Association. (NCPA) (Here's a copy of the ruling) it's OK to call them employees now. Next thing you know, here come's the labor union. Crap! Everything was going so well up to the point where an organization puts serving itself and its administrators first ahead of the guys that decided to speak collectively in unison and bring the law to bear on those of the great and powerful genre who would try to take advantage of them illegally and with avarice.

I completely understand the noble principle of amateurism that underlies opposition to players' playing for pay, however it is my feeling this idea has lately become more of an economic argument supported by one damn greedy side instead of an altruistic principle. This is what is happening today with more money than ever accumulating in the coffers of the CFB power brokers (e.g. athletic departments, conferences and the NCAA) -- money which had never even been conceived of in the not-too-distant past, much less something left for the "student athletes" that made it all possible. Has anyone asked the NCAA to comment on the windfall profits they now enjoy due to the popularity of the game and a few very savvy conference chairmen aside from those "student athletes" that everyone loves to watch as they perform their "student obligations." That's quite a brilliant reference to and use of the word "student" (heh heh)

To act like the status quo is today as it was at a time when "inappropriate benefits" were first defined, and when the term "student athlete" was also coined to emphasize that players were after all just your "everyday students" that wear school uniforms and nothing more, is to agree to be blinded in one eye (so as to convince everyone else to buy into the concept without stating the soon obvious reasons why.) My how things have changed. Gee what a coincidence, ya think?

Just be careful not to call the Reggie Bush's of this world "entertainers" that put out for the school. That sounds too much like someone you'd hire to provide a good time for your public patrons and alumni -- hardly anything that would be included in university curricula. Just remember that they are "Student Athletes" and it might fly. Show me a class called "Juking 101" and I may agree.

Here's the article, enjoy.

 

[cloverleaf]

Hot topic today on a local radio sports show. One guy made the case for a minor league system similar to baseball for those kids who do not want to go to college. Another guest spoke to paying the players $15 per hour related to football activity and then let the players pay their way through school. This is going to get ugly/stupid before it's over with.

 

[Conan]

Thanks for your input CL...

But you know... somehow people arguing what to do with an extra billion laying around doesn't bother me much. I am glad to see that in this country at least it's a fair fight.

 

[rolltide]

I am glad to see that in this country at least it's a fair fight.

yeah, my heart goes out to kids that get a world class Northwestern education, books, room & board, meals, and a per diem at no cost. Hopefully they'll have containers available at the Georgia Dome in August so I can drop a couple of cans of soup off for those struggling Bama and WVU, ahemm, employees

 

[Conan]

Here is Bryant Gumbel weighing in on the subject...

Part 1:

 

[Conan]

Part2:

 

[Conan]

yeah, my heart goes out to kids that get a world class Northwestern education, books, room & board, meals, and a per diem at no cost. Hopefully they'll have containers available at the Georgia Dome in August so I can drop a couple of cans of soup off for those struggling Bama and WVU, ahemm, employees

... at a cost to the school of one chair per classroom per scholarship.

 

[rolltide]

Hot topic today on a local radio sports show. One guy made the case for a minor league system similar to baseball for those kids who do not want to go to college. Another guest spoke to paying the players $15 per hour related to football activity and then let the players pay their way through school. This is going to get ugly/stupid before it's over with.

If these want to make $15/hr and pay $1.00 hr back to the union in exchange for $60k/year in tuition and expenses than they’re probably not smart enough to be at Northwestern anyway

Northwestern's cost of attendance changes each year, and it includes both standard and variable figures.
Cost of Attendance

The basic formula used to calculate the cost of attendance for the 2013-14 academic year is as follows:

Expense	Amount
Tuition	$45,120
Fees (Health $200, ASG $162, Athletic $45)	$407
Room and Board	$13,862*
Books and Supplies	$1,878
Personal Expenses	$1,926
Loan Fee	$35
Transportation	Varies
Cost of Attendance	$63,228

 

[CoachCB]

When these "pay the players" stories come up why is Title IX never mentioned?

If you pay a single football player you will have to pay ALL of your female athletes.

I posted in the other thread, there's a story by USA Today (or some other major outlet) that showed only 20-something D1 programs MADE money.

Tell me how Idaho, Troy, UAB, Central Michigan, Fresno State, etc are going to pay their athletes the same as the BCS schools?

This is a joke and it pisses me off that these kids are so selfish.

Another thing that pisses me off is the average Joe out there that sees the money that's pulled in by the big bowl games, tv revenue, etc and says, "Yeah! They should pay the players!" But never realizes what the cost and expenses are related to the big picture is.

When the 12th game was added, UF used the revenue to start up a woman's Lacrosse team. Guess what; there's no men's Lacrosse team at UF! But the men's football team is paying for it!

 

[rolltide]

I posted in the other thread, there's a story by USA Today (or some other major outlet) that showed only 20-something D1 programs MADE money.

strange...according to Conan Marx there are "BILLIONS" of dollars just lying around that were built on the blood and sweat of these poor D1 players. i was so inspired i went out and bought a sickle to go with my hammer!

of course reality tells us that only 23 out of 228 D1 athletic departments made a profit but i don't like to let facts get in the way of a good 'ol wholesome ignorance and embellishment

in line with your title IX point here is an article on its potential ramifications (written by an IU professor of labor law):

If upheld, decision could raise Title IX questions

Kenneth Dau-Schmidt, a professor and labor law expert at the Indiana University Maurer School of Law, said it appears the ruling may "have legs" under the law. Although Northwestern has indicated it will appeal, he believes there's a good chance the entire NLRB and perhaps even the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals will confirm the decision.
"The definition of 'employee' under the National Labor Relations Act is fairly broad," Dau-Schmidt said. "There are exceptions, but none of them apply to this case. There is a prior decision that university research assistants and teaching assistants are not employees under the NLRB, but that decision is very weak and can be distinguished because there the activity was part of the student’s educational program. The football players are directed to perform for the benefit of the university and receive compensation in the form of scholarships and stipends, so there is a pretty good argument they are employees for the purposes of the act."
Dau-Schmidt said it's important to note, however, that athletes at public universities would not be covered by the National Labor Relations Act. State employees are governed by state law, not the federal labor act. In Indiana, the general rule is that it is a criminal act for state employees to collectively bargain, although university employees are exempted from this prohibition and teachers, police and firefighters have separate statutes.
"Under Indiana common law, a public university would have no obligation to negotiate with its athletes; but if they did sign an agreement, it would be enforceable," he said. "From a practical perspective, if private universities began giving student athletes better insurance or stipends as a result of collective bargaining, public universities would have to follow suit to compete for athletes. Some of the money that now goes to pay large coaches’ salaries might go instead to pay for medical of disability insurance for college athletes."
If this decision is upheld and college football players at private universities begin to organize, Dau-Schmidt added, there is a good question of how this system would work consistently with the Title IX requirement of equal athletic opportunities for women.
"Where there is a positive cash flow in college athletics, it's usually associated with men’s football and basketball, not other sports. At the bigger schools, men’s football and basketball revenue supports the other athletic programs. Would Title IX mean that the football players have to negotiate benefits for all athletes and not just themselves? That would make for a very curious system of collective bargaining."

 

[GoSooners]

I can't wait until some of these universities fail to be able to negotiate an agreement with the "football union", and have to bring in "non-union" replacements. hno:

 

[Conan]

LOL good one GoSooners. The fact that there is an extra expense involved however the books have been cooked to appear that legitimate losses are real, just remember that there happens to be more money floating around by far than there ever has been and one of the key elements goes uncompensated. Or perhaps you think a school is really spending that kind of money mentioned in RT's post on a student's scholarship, many of which are extemporaneous and nothing but a nuisance to any player that wants to GTFO of school the fastest way he can. And yes, the end results may vary in spite of the intention to declare early eligibility, anything to get their shot at pro ball on any level. What is that scholarship worth to him? Wouldn't it have been better served to someone interested in getting a degree?

i don't think the answer can be found in a kind of minor league football organization that would take up the slack left by the college game. CFB has grown way too big for that to happen in an economically sensible way. Paying players won't ostensibly change the game. Everyone will love it just as much.

I am not for anyone making undue sacrifices. We know how that goes from a player's perspective. Two wrongs don't make a right (but 3 lefts do) I believe that in the future, the current sponsors that fund all of this, the same people that have been profiting on what both the schools and the players have been putting out should foot the bill. i have not run any numers yet but let's say $10,000 per player X 100 players per school, privately funded through a non-affiliated player's association comes out to about a million per year per major school. Less for minor schools, none of it subject to Title IX because no public institution pays for anything.... all privately made "contributions." All the NCAA would need to do is step aside, and that would be the hard part.

 

[Conan]

The basic formula used to calculate the cost of attendance for the 2013-14 academic year is as follows:

Expense	Amount
Tuition	$45,120
Fees (Health $200, ASG $162, Athletic $45)	$407
Room and Board	$13,862*
Books and Supplies	$1,878
Personal Expenses	$1,926
Loan Fee	$35
Transportation	Varies
Cost of Attendance	$63,228

Wowie zowie. Just look at how little your money is worth these days.... and that $45,000 figure is for tuition to attend a public university? That's pretty fu**ing high. That's just for the tuition, money that "collectively" covers a school's expenses... (assuming "of course" that they are mostly non-profit organizations... of course.)

 

[cloverleaf]

If college football players are paid extra other than their scholarship, what about women's volleyball? What about the marching band? What about the cheerleaders? Are men football players more "special, deserving" than other teams that compliment the college experience?

If paying men's football players ever sees the light of day....every woman's group in the country will be out in force advocating the same for all women athletes. And, they would win the same right as the football player. Ever heard of Title IV?

Our entire country now has this "you owe me" mentality. XXXXXXX Obama has sung that song everyday of his presidency and now too many people believe his bullshit!

 

[GoSooners]

If college football players are paid extra other than their scholarship, what about women's volleyball? What about the marching band? What about the cheerleaders? Are men football players more "special, deserving" than other teams that compliment the college experience?

If paying men's football players ever sees the light of day....every woman's group in the country will be out in force advocating the same for all women athletes. And, they would win the same right as the football player. Ever heard of Title IV?

Our entire country now has this "you owe me" mentality. XXXXXXX Obama has sung that song everyday of his presidency and now too many people believe his bullshit!

If those volleyball players, gymnasts, etc. who make nothing in the way of revenue for the school, have to pay $1,000+ a year in union dues, it will probably change their minds about forming a union of their own.

 

[russ1945]

My question is can the Universities fire players. They should be able to. Example - a student does not perform well on the field, can that be used against him. Oh I forgot unions. Seriously, this whole concept is the stupidest thing to happen to college sports probably ever. I still say coaches are vastly overpaid and the excuse is that it is related to the revenues for their sport etc. But student/athletes get a free education and some other benefits. It is not like they don't get a better deal than students who are not athletes.

 

[GoSooners]

I think it's going to be hard to argue the difference between a player who isn't playing as well as expected, and one who is busting his ass and not getting it done on the field. But it does bring up a bigger question: Should a player be in the union if he is a bench warmer who sits on the bench for 4 years, and basically doesn't serve as any monetary value to the school? Same goes for basketball, which I assume will be the next to try and unionize. The bad thing about basketball is you have so many diaper dandies like the players on this year's Kentucky team. They go one and done and their out of there and headed for the NBA. And I would lay money that some of them are one half and done. They probably go to school for a semester and basically just screw off the other semseter. Should these kinds of players who have no intention at all of getting an education of any kind be paid for their 6 months of school?

 

[CoachCB]

If college football players are paid extra other than their scholarship, what about women's volleyball? What about the marching band? What about the cheerleaders? Are men football players more "special, deserving" than other teams that compliment the college experience?

If paying men's football players ever sees the light of day....every woman's group in the country will be out in force advocating the same for all women athletes. And, they would win the same right as the football player. Ever heard of Title IV?

Our entire country now has this "you owe me" mentality. XXXXXXX Obama has sung that song everyday of his presidency and now too many people believe his bullshit!

Have you not read ANY of my previous posts on this? I've been harping on Title IX since this whole thing started!

 

[CoachCB]

If those volleyball players, gymnasts, etc. who make nothing in the way of revenue for the school, have to pay $1,000+ a year in union dues, it will probably change their minds about forming a union of their own.

GS, it's irrelevant. If a male player (in ANY sport) gets paid ALL of your female athletes have to get paid as well.

Go read Title IX.

Like I said before, when the 12th regular season football game was added...guess what the University of Florida did with the extra revenue? They added Woman's Lacrosse. Now at UF, there is no woman's football program...however, there is Woman's soccer, volleyball, and now lacrosse with NO men's equivalent.

No matter where this money comes from if you pay a male athlete you have to pay the female athletes.

Regarding the Private University vs. Public University; Title IX states that IF any school receives Federal funding (i.e. Pell Grants) that they are subject to Title IX. I can guarantee you EVERY college in America receives Federal funding for one reason or another (Stafford Student Loans, Pell Grants, funding, etc...they all count as "Federal Funding").

Go read Title IX.

Conan, sure. There are some "books" being "cooked". But do you mean to tell us that Idaho, Idaho State (both D1 football schools), UAB, Texas-San Antonio, Troy State, Memphis, East Carolina, Fresno State, Southern Miss, Florida Atlantic, Florida International (all D1 football schools), etc can find additional funding to pay their athletes?

Do you realize that football players can apply for and get student loans to cover their additional expenses? Do you realize that ANY of these kids that come from "poor" families get Pell Grants? That's around $6,000/year if free money that they do not have to pay back.

Sure, kids that go to USC, Oklahoma, Florida, Alabama, Florida State, Ohio State, Texas, etc think they'll make it to the NFL. At these schools maybe 10% will get to the "next level" for a season or two (some much longer). But does a kid that signs with Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Purdue, Washington State, Kentucky, Colorado (all BCS schools) all the way down to the shitty D1 schools really think they are going to make it in the NFL (or even get to the NFL)? Sure, some do...but most of them are excited they get to play D1 ball (vs. 1AA or D2, D3).

People make this whole thing out as if EVERY single one of these kids has a shot at the NFL and they are being taken advantage of by their respective school. We know Alabama, LSU, FSU, Texas, Florida, etc have the types of programs that put a lot of kids in the NFL. And the blue-chip kids want to go there. No one is forcing them...because they see these schools as their ticket to the NFL. What's wrong with that? It's not free. There is a cost.

These people that say, "Oh, those poor players should get paid!!" really have no clue how the whole process works. The revenue being brought in is being used to improve facilities, pay for scholarships, pay coaches/trainers/medical/etc, and to compete with the Jones's. The books might be getting "cooked", but the money is being spent. Nothing in this world is free.

This system has worked for more than 100 years. Why does it need to change now?

Again, if you pay a male ahtlete (in ANY sport) a single dollar you will have to pay that dollar to EVERY single female athlete at the school. This will shut down many smaller colleges.

Go read Title IX!

Now...where do we draw the line? ESPN shows 1AA football. In fact, the first game this year on ESPN is a 1AA game. I just watched the NCAA D2 basketball championship on regular network TV on Saturday. Do we pay those kids? They "work" just as many hours as their D1 counterparts.

Do we pay the walk-ons? Aren't they out there earning their keep just like the scholarship kids? If you say "no" because they are not on scholarship...what if they earn playing time such as a kicker or punter...or on special teams (kickoff team or punting unit)?

Now, if we decide we don't pay 1AA kids...say, you get a kid who is a tweener? He's being recruited by Central Michigan (D1) and a bunch of higher level 1AA teams....does he take the Central Michigan scholarship because he may get paid? Or does he go to the 1AA school...not get paid...but have a better chance at playing time?

This whole thing is going to fuck up the integrity of the system. It is a joke and ANYONE who agrees these kids should "get paid", "get a stipend" or ANY other form of "payment" really is an idiot or has no fucking clue! Guess what else? They should:

Go read Title IX!

 

[GoSooners]

Have you not read ANY of my previous posts on this? I've been harping on Title IX since this whole thing started!

Coach...If college football players are deemed employees then Title IX doesn't matter. That's why this is such a huge ruling. Like I said, this will probably be tied up in courts for a long time to come. And will end up losing..