I was thinking about the Helo/Airplane crash over the Hudson

[Enfuego]

And I just don't get it. I mean, the sky is not a crowded place and say you and your co-pilot are flying in the airplane don't you obviously see a giant damn helicopter? Don't you fly and fly and look ahead and say "hey, there's a helicopter about 300 yards in front of us..we'd better move."

When I fly on a commercial plane I've seen aircraft off in the distance before and they're a good distance away but still clear as day. What am I missing here?

 

[TricoCat23]

I agree Enfuego. They keep interviewing the Italian couple that was supposed to be on the helicopter. But one of them had cold feet.

Just a strange set of circumstances in this one.

 

[carlspackler]

The sky around where this accident took place is extreamly crowded with air traffic. All they have been talking about since the accident is how congested the area is and how many saw this coming. The Hudson river is used by pilots as an air corridor.
The prevailing theory is that the helicopter was asending and flew into the path of the plane. The helicopter would have been in the planes blind spot(below the cockpit) But we shall see when the NTSB releases it's findings.

 

[skoda]

A personal phone call during last week's collision over New York's Hudson River has led to two air traffic controllers being removed from duty, although officials said the conversation probably had no impact on the tragedy.

The controller had cleared the small plane, a single-engine Piper, for takeoff and then made a personal call to a woman, said sources familiar with the investigation, who asked not to be named because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.

The controller was still on the phone when the accident occurred. This sequence of events lasted only a few minutes.

National Transportation Safety Board and FAA investigators learned of the telephone conversation earlier this week while examining recordings of telephone calls on a landline phone in the tower that controllers use to communicate with other parts of the Teterboro Airport. The controller and supervisor were removed from duty immediately.

Air traffic controllers are expected to be alert at all times while on duty and typically are given about a 15-minute break roughly every two hours for that reason

 

[Enfuego]

The sky around where this accident took place is extreamly crowded with air traffic. All they have been talking about since the accident is how congested the area is and how many saw this coming. The Hudson river is used by pilots as an air corridor.
The prevailing theory is that the helicopter was asending and flew into the path of the plane. The helicopter would have been in the planes blind spot(below the cockpit) But we shall see when the NTSB releases it's findings.

Ok, but as you are taking off doesn't the airplane see the helicopter? The helicopter just doesn't ascend as they cross without anyone seeing it right? And how does the helo pilot not see the airplane? I know it's crowded but not like a freeway or anything. You surely know if a big jet is coming right?

 

[wolfie_cr]

big airplanes have a system called TCAS that will alert the pilot if there is another plane on collision course (Smaller planes or choppers are not required to have this), you also can't just fly any direction you want....there are corridors in a 'highway' fashion
another thing is, since a collision can happen from any direction (up /down/etc ) you don't have mirrors as you would in car

also there is the issue of speed, a typical airliner cruises at 550 mph so if you have two planes head on we are talking about a relative speed of over 1000 mph ......not a lot of time to react ....you see it and you have enough time to say 'oh shit'

there have been a few incidents of crashes .....of the top of my head one DHL plane crashed over Switzerland/Germany? against a Russian plane, another one in Brazil where two planes collided because one was flying at the wrong altitude.....esentially the way they have traffic setup one 'lane' goes north /south at certain height......and it goes south/north at a different height........one plane was flying at the wrong altitude.......BANG
(I have been watching 'air crash investigations' )

 

[Enfuego]

big airplanes have a system called TCAS that will alert the pilot if there is another plane on collision course (Smaller planes or choppers are not required to have this), you also can't just fly any direction you want....there are corridors in a 'highway' fashion
another thing is, since a collision can happen from any direction (up /down/etc ) you don't have mirrors as you would in car

also there is the issue of speed, a typical airliner cruises at 550 mph so if you have two planes head on we are talking about a relative speed of over 1000 mph ......not a lot of time to react ....you see it and you have enough time to say 'oh shit'

there have been a few incidents of crashes .....of the top of my head one DHL plane crashed over Switzerland/Germany? against a Russian plane, another one in Brazil where two planes collided because one was flying at the wrong altitude.....esentially the way they have traffic setup one 'lane' goes north /south at certain height......and it goes south/north at a different height........one plane was flying at the wrong altitude.......BANG
(I have been watching 'air crash investigations' )

Very good information Wolfie and I can see this happening at night without problem but let's say a guy is flying at the wrong altitute...can he not look out the window and see another large object coming at him? I mean, can't he see the other aircraft and make a decision? I get the traffic corridors and I've been around aircraft for the last 10 years so I'm familiar with what you're talking about but in a general sense it doesn't seem like rocket science.

 

[Objection]

Given the circumstances I read about the accident, I don't know how having TCAS would have helped the fixed-wing aircraft avoid the collision.

 

[wolfie_cr]

Very good information Wolfie and I can see this happening at night without problem but let's say a guy is flying at the wrong altitute...can he not look out the window and see another large object coming at him? I mean, can't he see the other aircraft and make a decision? I get the traffic corridors and I've been around aircraft for the last 10 years so I'm familiar with what you're talking about but in a general sense it doesn't seem like rocket science.

if the visibility is 10 miles (which as far as I know is as good as it gets) and you are flying at 550 mph.....you would have exactly.......

550+550= 1100mph relative speed between the two planes

10/1100= 0.00909 hours= 0.54 minutes or 32 seconds to

a) see it
b) decide that there is a collision course
c) figure out what the heck to do

in other words, if you are constantly looking like a hawk out the window.......you don't have a very good chance to do it anyway and of course the pilots are not looking out the window all the time and the visibility is not always perfect , clouds in the way etc

look at this for example

" During the 2001 Japan Airlines mid-air incident, two Japanese airliners, both Japan Airlines, nearly collided with each other in Japanese skies. Disaster was avoided because one of the pilots made evasive manoeuvres based on a visual judgement, and 677 people were saved. If the collision had occurred, it would have been the deadliest civil aviation accident in terms of passenger lives. The aircraft missed each other by less than 100 metres, and the abrupt manoeuver necessary to avert disaster left about 100 occupants hurt on one aircraft, some seriously. Japanese authorities called for measures that would prevent similar accidents from happening, but ICAO did not further investigate the incident until after the Germany collision. In addition four near misses in Europe occurred before the Germany disaster because one set of pilots obeyed the air traffic controllers while the other obeyed TCAS. "

the pilot saved everyone yet 100 were hurt.

 

[sean1]

From what I understand, the helicopter was sitting still and the plane flew into it.

Seems to me a case of the pilot sightseeing (Looking at the Manhattan skyline) rather than paying attention.

Cesnas don't fly at 500 mph and certainly not at take off. MOre like 100-130mph. Many of us have done that in a car and certainly would have noticed a helicopter sitting in the road.

 

[Objection]

From what I've read, and from the video, the helicopter was climbing into the path of the other aircraft.

 

[wolfie_cr]

From what I understand, the helicopter was sitting still and the plane flew into it.

Seems to me a case of the pilot sightseeing (Looking at the Manhattan skyline) rather than paying attention.

Cesnas don't fly at 500 mph and certainly not at take off. MOre like 100-130mph. Many of us have done that in a car and certainly would have noticed a helicopter sitting in the road.

Obvious but I was simply saying that its not that simple to think 'how come the pilot didnt see it and tried to avoid it' , real life is one thing, movies/perceptions are another

obviously cessna or no cessna you cant get a full view of everything that surrounds you and may be on a collision course with you.


you can see the actual collision here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKy...midair-over-the-hudso&feature=player_embedded

I am no pilot btw but in this collision in particular I would believe that both pilots screwed up

 

[celticGreen+]

Am I the only one thinking that perhaps only major commercial aircraft should be allowed to fly within cities...? Remember when that mlb player flew into the fing building?!? Lucky these guys collided over the river and not a busy city street (I realize its less likely due to the routes they fly, but still).

 

[Enfuego]

Obvious but I was simply saying that its not that simple to think 'how come the pilot didnt see it and tried to avoid it' , real life is one thing, movies/perceptions are another

obviously cessna or no cessna you cant get a full view of everything that surrounds you and may be on a collision course with you.


you can see the actual collision here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKy...midair-over-the-hudso&feature=player_embedded

I am no pilot btw but in this collision in particular I would believe that both pilots screwed up

Holy shit, I just watched that video. I still don't get it though. I mean, a window in the cockpit of a helo is quite big and I don't understand how that guy didn't see that big old airplane coming right at him. Like another poster said, it seems like he wasn't paying attention. In fact, I don't think either was paying attention.

 

[sean1]

It is stunning to me that private aircrafts can still fly over or around NYC.

Seems to me that's gotta be a huge weakness in security.