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THE SHRINK

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D2bets,

I happen to LOVE Pinnacle Sports but many times when I want to place a bet online with them, the line changes AFTER I reveal what side I want. Sometimes, the change works against me, other times, the change favors me...

I believe that these sports books are not deliberately trying to cheat you but rather, it's their SOFTWARE that won't allow multiple bets to come in at the same time, so the sports book can change its lines..

If you want to avoid all of this, then CALL ON THE PHONE. If a sports book doesn't honor the line they read to me when I phone them, then I consider that WRONG and I won't bet with them anymore...

THE SHRINK
 

Halifax

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THE SHRINK said:
D2bets,

I happen to LOVE Pinnacle Sports but many times when I want to place a bet online with them, the line changes AFTER I reveal what side I want. Sometimes, the change works against me, other times, the change favors me...

I believe that these sports books are not deliberately trying to cheat you but rather, it's their SOFTWARE that won't allow multiple bets to come in at the same time, so the sports book can change its lines..

If you want to avoid all of this, then CALL ON THE PHONE. If a sports book doesn't honor the line they read to me when I phone them, then I consider that WRONG and I won't bet with them anymore...

THE SHRINK
You're dead wrong, Shrink.

Ask guys that know what they're doing like neilm, d2bets, and any number of others, and they will tell you that this is not the case.

Pinnacle changes the line BEFORE you submit your bet (they've got a ton of volume, so it's bound to happen).

But the others will change the line AFTER you submit the bet. Personally, I am certain that SkyBook and BetJamaica do it to me. It sounds like Holly is doing the same thing to others.

Obviously, even with SkyBook, BetJamaica, and Hollywood, there are occasions where what you just talked about does happen (they change the line just prior to submitting your bet) ... BUT I REPEAT, more often than not, this isn't what is happening with SkyBook, BetJamaica, Hollywood when they change the line on you - most of the time with them, they change the line AFTER you submit your bet.

Believe it or don't believe it, but it's 200% the truth.
 
DarrylParsons

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Halifax and D2Bets,

I agree it was a nice write-up by Halifax and I have a response...

The key here is that the player in question is a steam chaser. This means he knows the line either has moved already or will move within a few seconds and so he'll miss it if he's not quick. In this scenario, the only difference between it moving BEFORE or AFTER you place your bet is a technicality -- he already knows it SHOULD move or SHOULD HAVE moved when he places his bet. This is not the same as a non-steam player who just happens to make good picks. In that case I agree it would be unethical because the information the book is getting (ie. this sharp guy is making a bet) contains information that he's not supposed to use, but in the case of the steam player, the bet just means that Don Best showed a market move. That information is already available to the linesmaker.

A good analogy would be a guy who goes to change currency at a private currency exchange booth...say he notices that they open at 8am, but the clerk has a few sips of coffee before putting up the new day's rates and so for a couple of minutes yesterday's rates are showing. Then suppose some wiseguy notices this and waits for a big overnight currency move, jumps in the door at 8:00:01 with $100,000 wanting to make an exchange at the posted rate. When the clerk says those aren't our rates today he cries foul, threatens to sue etc. Do you think he would get very far? Of course not.

OTOH if the clerk was so lazy that he waited until 8:30 to change the rates and in the meantime serves 10 customers at the old rate and only changes them when a big customer walks in, then that's another matter.

So to decide if Hollywood is being unethical or not we need to know exactly how they do their line changes. If they adjust fairly promptly but occasionally delay by a minute or two, but in this minute or two they approve all bets on both sides for all players except known steam chasers, then use a known steam chaser's play as a flag to check the Don Best screen and ONLY change the line on him if the Don Best screen shows a very recent change, and from that point on use the new line for all new bets by all customers on both sides, then I would say they are being ethical.

If, OTOH, they know about the Don Best line change but deliberately delay in the hope of using an option against the player (ie. if the player takes one team, accept the bet at the bad line, but if he chooses the other, move the line), then it's clearly unethical.

A good way to test them would be as follows... when chalk makes his next play, have an associate with a different account wait for the approval WITHOUT REFRESHING, then if chalk gets a line change notice, immediately have the associate try to make the OPPOSITE play on the old, unrefreshed (sh*ttier) line for a small amount. If that play gets accepted, then Hollywood is guilty. If not, they are innocent.

I would be curious to see how such an experiment would pan out. We caught Pinnacle on this before and since then they've more or less behaved (probably costing them tens of thousands of $$$). In this case I would bet on Hollywood to pass the test but I guess the only way to be absolutely sure is to do the experiment. Anyone want to try it?
 

jjgold

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I am with Kenny on this one

Darryl interesting post and would be curious to see outcome
 

Halifax

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Darryl Parsons said:
Halifax and D2Bets,

I agree it was a nice write-up by Halifax and I have a response...

The key here is that the player in question is a steam chaser. This means he knows the line either has moved already or will move within a few seconds and so he'll miss it if he's not quick. In this scenario, the only difference between it moving BEFORE or AFTER you place your bet is a technicality -- he already knows it SHOULD move or SHOULD HAVE moved when he places his bet. This is not the same as a non-steam player who just happens to make good picks. In that case I agree it would be unethical because the information the book is getting (ie. this sharp guy is making a bet) contains information that he's not supposed to use, but in the case of the steam player, the bet just means that Don Best showed a market move. That information is already available to the linesmaker.

A good analogy would be a guy who goes to change currency at a private currency exchange booth...say he notices that they open at 8am, but the clerk has a few sips of coffee before putting up the new day's rates and so for a couple of minutes yesterday's rates are showing. Then suppose some wiseguy notices this and waits for a big overnight currency move, jumps in the door at 8:00:01 with $100,000 wanting to make an exchange at the posted rate. When the clerk says those aren't our rates today he cries foul, threatens to sue etc. Do you think he would get very far? Of course not.

OTOH if the clerk was so lazy that he waited until 8:30 to change the rates and in the meantime serves 10 customers at the old rate and only changes them when a big customer walks in, then that's another matter.

So to decide if Hollywood is being unethical or not we need to know exactly how they do their line changes. If they adjust fairly promptly but occasionally delay by a minute or two, but in this minute or two they approve all bets on both sides for all players except known steam chasers, then use a known steam chaser's play as a flag to check the Don Best screen and ONLY change the line on him if the Don Best screen shows a very recent change, and from that point on use the new line for all new bets by all customers on both sides, then I would say they are being ethical.

If, OTOH, they know about the Don Best line change but deliberately delay in the hope of using an option against the player (ie. if the player takes one team, accept the bet at the bad line, but if he chooses the other, move the line), then it's clearly unethical.

A good way to test them would be as follows... when chalk makes his next play, have an associate with a different account wait for the approval WITHOUT REFRESHING, then if chalk gets a line change notice, immediately have the associate try to make the OPPOSITE play on the old, unrefreshed (sh*ttier) line for a small amount. If that play gets accepted, then Hollywood is guilty. If not, they are innocent.

I would be curious to see how such an experiment would pan out. We caught Pinnacle on this before and since then they've more or less behaved (probably costing them tens of thousands of $$$). In this case I would bet on Hollywood to pass the test but I guess the only way to be absolutely sure is to do the experiment. Anyone want to try it?
Darryl, it's not just steam moves.

I'll give you a real-life example. Early morning with Rio .... Pinnacle has had -3 +102 / +3 -112 for about 15 minutes on a basketball game. Rio has had -3 -110 / +3 -110 for an hour on that same game. I sense a Pinnacle lean, so I bet the +3 -110 at Rio. The bet goes into the "approval que" and, lo and behold, the line has changed to +/- 2.5, and the bet was rejected.

This type of thing has happened MANY times, when there was no steam move whatsoever occuring.
 
DarrylParsons

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Halifax said:
Darryl, it's not just steam moves.

I'll give you a real-life example. Early morning with Rio .... Pinnacle has had -3 +102 / +3 -112 for about 15 minutes on a basketball game. Rio has had -3 -110 / +3 -110 for an hour on that same game. I sense a Pinnacle lean, so I bet the +3 -110 at Rio. The bet goes into the "approval que" and, lo and behold, the line has changed to +/- 2.5, and the bet was rejected.

This type of thing has happened MANY times, when there was no steam move whatsoever occuring.
Hmmm...if it's not just steam, then I don't know what to say...I suppose there's an ethical problem if it happens often enough. One or two isolated incidents could be a coincidence but if it happens often as you say, then I have to agree with you. If a player is sharp they should just limit him, accept his bets just like anyone else, and then move the line AFTER he places his bets. If I were the book I wouldn't even cut his limits that much because the information he's giving me is probably more valuable to me than the EV I'm losing by honoring his bets.
 

Halifax

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Darryl, one other note regarding what you just posted ....

Most of the guys that are complaining about this use the Don Best screen, so you are right in thinking that it's a race against the clock, and Hollywood probably doesn't want them to bet the line that they're trying to bet on.

In my case, I don't have Don Best. I use a line service, but it has a minute or two delay, so I miss almost all of these steam moves ... but the example I gave you above, involving Rio, shows that it doesn't have to be a steam move for them to pull this stunt - they apparently respect Pinnacle's leans, and apparently will double-check to see if Pinnacle is "leaning" before they approve a bet. So Rio probably didn't want me to bet on the line that I did, either.

But as far as I'm concerned, the bottom line is this ... whether it's in the heat of a steam move, or whether it's me that sees a Pinnacle lean with my 2-minute delayed line service ... it doesn't matter. The fact that Rio/Holly/BatJam WOULD PREFER TO CHANGE THEIR LINE does not give them the right to change it AFTER THE CLIENT HAS ALREADY BET INTO IT.

It's not my personal responsibility to notify them, by way of placing a bet, that their line's slightly off centre ... that's their responsibility to do before I place my bet, NOT AFTER.
 

Halifax

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And one other note regarding the Currency Exchange example ....No question that the Exchange is not operating up to par, but it's the reponsibility of the Exchange's owner to either fire the guy for incompetence, or train him to change the exchange rates as soon as he arrives in the morning.

It's not the responsibility of the customer.
 

THE SHRINK

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This has been a very informative thread. I am able to "SEE" the other side that some of you have presented very well...

However, I can GUARANTEE that if you were to CALL RIO or HOLLYWOOD, they would HONOR the line that they READ to you on the telephone...

Wouldn't it make sense that IF a sports book were out to cheat you, they would behave in similar fashion and make up some excuse as to why the line changed while you were on with them?

THE SHRINK
 

Halifax

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THE SHRINK said:
However, I can GUARANTEE that if you were to CALL RIO or HOLLYWOOD, they would HONOR the line that they READ to you on the telephone...
Shrink, I don't disagree with you on this statement, but understand that it takes a lot longer to call in the play ... and when you call in the play, the book will be able to double-check the line BEFORE they offer you the line.

With this situation with the internet bets, they double-check the line AFTER you submit your bet, and if the line you got isn't the line that they want you to have, they will reject your bet AND THEN adjust the line.

Big difference.
 
DarrylParsons

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I agree that the best practice is to give guaranteed confirmation screens like Canbet or Olympic and that line changes should show up before the confirm button is pressed. I also agree that in the case of a non steam-chaser, regularly changing lines after the submit button is pressed is unethical. I also believe that selective line changes ie. rejecting some wagers and accepting others depending on the player or the side chosen is unethical.

BUT, in the case of a known steam chaser I only consider it unfortunate, but not unethical, to have a built-in approval mechanism on internet bets that starts when you hit "submit" PROVIDED the result is a true line change applicable to all and that at any point in time, the same line is applied to all bettors. The reason is that IMO steam chasing is itself unethical and so one is ethically allowed to respond in a similar manner because the other guy took the first unethical step.

On this last point we will have to agree to disagree but on all others I think we see it similarly.
 

drunk

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I don't have a problem with the delay. Most of the times it doesn't affect my play. I was complaining about the cut in bet size. I don't double hit and posted up at Hollywood for the -07. I can understand there reasoning and yes I could call in on the phone, but then Iwould not get the -07. So IMO they have that right, and since I know they will take the pop at -110 on the phone, theyhave the right too limit the -07 online. My question is this: If I give up the -07 will the online limits be increased?
 

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