Gameface: here lies one of the real problems in the ME

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An Israeli senior military told Israeli lawmakers recently that the terrorist group, Hezbollah, has grown so powerful that it has actually achieved a state of deterrence against Israel.

Hezbollah has acquired a missile arsenal so large that the Israelis are actually afraid to provoke them for fear of retaliation. Israeli senior commanders estimate that Hezbollah has as many as 15,000 rockets and missiles of varying ranges that could blanket most of the Jewish State.

As a consequence, it is Hezbollah -- and not Israel -- that is calling the shots along the Israeli/Lebanese border. An Israeli Defense ministry study found that, should Hezbollah launch an all-out attack on Israel, much of the northern part of the country 'could be destroyed'. Several Israeli communities would be wiped off that map. Hezbollah rockets within range of chemical plants in Haifa could unleash a toxic cloud that would kill everyone for miles around the facilities.

In the event of a war with Syria, Israeli military commanders say, a Hezbollah attack could flatten northern Israel and open up a second military front that could force Israel to use non-conventional weapons to prevent the country from being destroyed.

Senior Palestinian officials in Gaza say that Hezbollah is trying to recruit terrorists from among the Palestinians in Gaza while Iran works to undermine any renewal of the diplomatic process between the PA and Israel.

Israel has arrested 19 Palestinian activists recruited or controlled by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. In addition, security services have identified Hezbollah's smuggling weapons and other military equipment through tunnels connecting the Sinai to the Gaza Strip.

Israeli security services attribute 21 attacks to Tanzim cells controlled by Iran. Some 50 Israelis have been killed and 216 injured in those attacks.

According to intelligence estimates, Iran and Hezbollah will concentrate their efforts in undermining any chance of renewing the peace process, and if a cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinians is achieved, they will seek to destroy it.

Iran is opposed to negotiations between Israel and Syria and the possibility that an interim agreement may result in Hezbollah's withdrawal from Lebanon's southern border with Israel.

Intelligence information also suggests that Iran is passing over millions of dollars to Palestinians via Hezbollah contacts, picking up where Saddam Hussein left off when he was overthrown by the coalition.

The Palestinian organization with which Iran has the closest affiliation is Islamic Jihad. Hamas maintains a permanent representative in Iran.

Hamas also gets significant financial and technical assistance from Tehran and its agents.

Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction or removal of all non-Islamic influences in the Middle East, especially that of the United States, and in particular, Israel. It was Hezbollah, backed by the Islamic authorities in Iran, that was behind the bombing of the US Marines in Beirut in 1983.

In his September 20, 2001, speech to Congress, President Bush pledged that the U.S.-led war on terror "will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

Hezbollah's cells outside the Middle East, its reported involvement in the January 2002 attempt to smuggle a boatload of arms to the Palestinian Authority, and its role in the 1992 and 1994 attacks in Argentina make it a 'terrorist group of global reach'.

Hezbollah was even named specifically by President Bush by name as a terrorist group of global reach during his 2002 State of the Union speech.

Indeed, in June, 2002, Singapore accused Hezbollah of recruiting some of its citizens in a failed plot to attack U.S. and Israeli ships in the Singapore Straits.

Following the September 11 attacks, the president outlined his policy, known as the Bush Doctrine, which says the United States will "make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them".

It was under the authority of the Bush Doctrine that the United States went into Afghanistan and ended the terrorist regime of the Taliban. The US demanded the Taliban hand over Osama bin-Laden. When the Taliban refused, the Bush Doctrine required the US to view Afghanistan as an enemy state.

Under the terms of the Bush Doctrine, so are Iran and Syria.

The Bush Doctrine was fully delineated in a National Security Council text entitled the National Security Strategy of the United States issued on September 17, 2002.

The Bush Doctrine can be broken down into its component elements; the first of which is also the most controversial -- preemption. A preemptive attack is defined as "an attempt to repel or defeat an imminent offensive or invasion, or to gain a strategic advantage in an impending and unavoidable war."

The Bush Doctrine gives the United States the right to take unilateral action without the approval of the United Nations, if necessary.

Despite the declaration of the Bush Doctrine, Iran and Syria continue to arm and equip Hezbollah with relative impunity. As a consequence, Hezbollah, estimated to number only a few thousand fighters, is in a position to hold Israel hostage by virtue of its ability to decimate the northern part of their country.

Thanks to the efforts of Hezbollah and its Iranian and Syrian backers, the United States has been rendered all but useless as a legitimate peace broker between Israel and her Islamic enemies.

Under the Bush Doctrine, the states with which peace must be negotiated are not just Israel's enemies, they are the declared enemies of the United States.

As a consequence of that fact, the Bush administration is aggressively pushing the Europeans to take a wider role in the process, something that the Europeans have been eyeing for years.

Having Europe on board would pay dividends because the Europeans are believed to be capable of influencing the Palestinians.

There can never be peace between Israel and the forces of Islam, no matter who confirms it or how badly Israel wants a peace agreement to work.

For the forces of Islam to recognize Israel's right to exist would be tantamount to admitting that Allah lied. That the Koran is wrong. The Koran says once Islam takes root in a nation, that nation will always be Islamic.

Any non-Islamic entity is therefore, by definition, a temporary 'occupation' by a foreign power or it means the Koran is wrong.

Islam can no more recognize Israel's right to exist than Israel can recognize Islam's right to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. The side that gives in not only gives up territory, it must also give up the basic fundamentals of their religion.

It is a war, not between nations, but between gods. Specifically, the God of the Bible and the god of this world. It cannot be settled by negotiations between nations, or by the threat of the imposition of force, as the impotence of the Bush Doctrine regarding Iran and Syria makes painfully obvious.

The war that began with Israel's declaration of statehood in 1948 is the same war that the Israeli prophets predicted would be settled, not at the negotiating table, but on the plains of Megiddo.
 

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Islam can no more recognize Israel's right to exist than Israel can recognize Islam's right to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. The side that gives in not only gives up territory, it must also give up the basic fundamentals of their religion.

Bullcrap. It's stubborn fools who refuse to negotiate that are preventing a peaceful settlement. Religion can evolve, if the people who believe in it want it to. You're trying to eradicate all human responsibility in this mess by inferring that religions are static and unchangeable, when they are obviously not. They are man-made philosophies, and can shift and bend with the will of the people who follow.

It is a war, not between nations, but between gods. Specifically, the God of the Bible and the god of this world.

Unless and until you can invite god (whichever one you like) to come and sit at the discussion table, he/she has absolutely no place in politics. The Israeli issue is a perfect example of the death and destruction that emits from such blind stupidity and self-righteousness. American Christian Zionists are helping to build a roadblock to peace, because it suits your Rapture interests. Guess what? The rest of us don't want any part of your Apocalypse, thank you.
 
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The Arabs HAVE NO INTEREST in peace with Israel ...
the PLO charter promotes the complete destruction of Israel as a State

The Islamic religion will not bend in their beliefs ... Israel has tried time and time again to negotiate peace and give away chunks of land ...

Does not work .. never has and any Peace (??) is ony a very temporary lull in this part of the world

All out war awaits as we head toward 2005 and 2006 ...
 

bushman
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Doc.

Have you got any names for the military retard/s that believe this?

I find it useful to know the actual names of these idiots for future reference.

(I don't doubt that the Islamic crazies have some kit btw)

Something a bit more specific than 'An Israeli senior military'
smile.gif


BTW the Shebaa Farms area (about 6sq miles in size) seems to be the only genuine hotspot on the border.
http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsukfs&tab=news&q=Shebaa+Farms&go.x=38&go.y=5
 
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doc mercer said:
The Arabs HAVE NO INTEREST in peace with Israel ...
the PLO charter promotes the complete destruction of Israel as a State

Ah, and you and yours are champions of peace in the region? You don't think Sharon carries any blame whatsoever for the ongoing standoff?? Besides, your article doesn't blame Arabs, but Islam. It blames the whole mess on a war between gods, absolving everyone from personal responsibility in the mess.
 

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xpanda said:
Religion can evolve, if the people who believe in it want it to. You're trying to eradicate all human responsibility in this mess by inferring that religions are static and unchangeable, when they are obviously not. They are man-made philosophies, and can shift and bend with the will of the people who follow.
That is a very ignorant statement. You obviously do not understand people who believe in God. Religeous people do not view it as a "man-made philosophy", but the will of their maker, thus each side has their adament stances.
 

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So be it..

Get on with war, then peace can be achieved after complete victory.
 

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christof said:
That is a very ignorant statement. You obviously do not understand people who believe in God. Religeous people do not view it as a "man-made philosophy", but the will of their maker, thus each side has their adament stances.

And what about the rest of the people who either don't believe in a god at all, or not the same one as the other side?? Christians (and I know doc is one of them in this case) believe that Islam is man-made, since they don't accept Allah as a god. And vice-versa. And so on.

My point is that religion and politics need to be protected from one another. And I have history on my side ...
 
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Xpanda:

go read the Koran ... lot of principals that go against the core of values of the Bible

Lets talk realities ... Israel has time and time again attempted to work peace with the Arabs and AINT GONNA HAPPEN

Israel is surrounded by 22 countries with one single intent: COMPLETE DESTRUCTION
 

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doc mercer said:
Xpanda:

go read the Koran ... lot of principals that go against the core of values of the Bible
There are alot of things in the Bible that go against the core values of Christianity. What's your point?

I made a point in this forum once that there is a story of rape and literal baby stealingall the while committing adultery, in the Old Testament, and (I believe it was the same poster as earlier in this thread) was asked how it could be possible to rape and take a baby from women who were considered property?

The Bible has all kinds of nastiness in there. Further, have you read the entire Qu'ran or just the bits that worldnetdaily puts in their articles? I have not read it myself, but I have a difficult time believing that every last Muslim is more violent than not. You're letting the violent fanatics represent the majority, when they are not.
 

"I got my ass kicked by a superior BLUE state"
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xpanda said:
There are alot of things in the Bible that go against the core values of Christianity. What's your point?

It is every Christian's duty to speak out against any church not following the Bible. The Bible is like the Constitution in that it trumps all the Joe Blow's who try to do their own thing. Unfortunately, most church-goers don't know very much about the Bible and say nothing. We could debate this for hours but something tells me you're referring to capital punishment (which has support in the New Testament) and/or your rape analogy.

xpanda said:
I made a point in this forum once that there is a story of rape and literal baby stealingall the while committing adultery, in the Old Testament, and (I believe it was the same poster as earlier in this thread) was asked how it could be possible to rape and take a baby from women who were considered property?

This sounds like something that I would say. I'm not sure if I said it but its consistent with my opinions.

xpanda said:
The Bible has all kinds of nastiness in there. Further, have you read the entire Qu'ran or just the bits that worldnetdaily puts in their articles? I have not read it myself, but I have a difficult time believing that every last Muslim is more violent than not. You're letting the violent fanatics represent the majority, when they are not.

I have read an English version a few times in the '90's and there are many instances of violence just as there are in the Bible. Instead of saying that Muslims love violence more so than their Christian counterparts let's just say they're more committed than same. I don't think they'll budge on the Temple Mount issue as its considered one of the top 5 most revered sites in all of Islam. You may not understand their devotion but its there no matter how foolish it may sound to you.

Ultimately, whether or not they're more violent than Christians is debatable. The best way for you to find out is to attend a Bible study and then attend something similar affiliated with the discussion of Islam. It would be better to attend the actual services but you might come across something like I did where they preached solely in Arabic so I had little idea of what they might have been saying. At least in the home setting they'll go out of their way to help a potential convert.
 

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