Everything you ever wanted to know about US atrocities at Abu Ghraib

[EverFresh]

Courtesy of Rotten.com

http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/prison/abu-ghraib/

My favorite quote:

"The prison had held a peak population of around 15,000 under Saddam. The Americans humanely reduced that number to about 5,000. And in place of Saddam's humiliation and torture, the Americans humanely substituted... Well, more humiliation and torture."

 

[bblight]

The Bathists blindfolded people and rolled them off of tall buildings; they cut off fingers, hands, tongues ears, noses and other body parts; they regularly sodomized and raped prisoners; they blinded them, ripped off finger nails and toe nails - doused various body parts (usually a mans or womans genitals) in gasoline and set them on fire, killed men and womans spouses and children in front of them, and then killed them; they gassed whole villages with mustard gas and other nerve agents - a gruesome, painful death. If they were feeling compassionate, they just shot their victims in the head.

There are actual films of all of these atrocities being committed by the Hussein government to Iraqi's.

Now that is torture - what you talk about is abuse and humiliation - some very extreme - but m,ost of it is not torture - alythough I will agree there are some limited instances that could easily be defined to as torture.

Then again, what Teddy Kennedy did to MaryJo Kopekne and what Robert Byrd did to a lot of southern blacks could also be defined as torture.

 

[Phaedrus]

bblight

The Ba'athists could have been ten times worse, twenty times worse than they actually are; it does not make the actions of these soldiers excusable. The actions of the Nazis or the raiders of Genghis Khan have no bearing on this situation either. You can pull up a great many examples from history of worse behaviour than what has been done in Iraq, but that doesn't change the fact that these soldiers have shamed their uniform and their country. I am so sick of seing people trying to make apologies for these fúcking pieces of shit.


Phaedrus

 

[Oceans11]

I disagree entirely with you P.

The majority of the people that have power at the sharp end are youngsters, the muscle, but the push behind them, are the old fux.

I know what I know because this OLD git knows that the youngsters will follow a plausible old git. I can do it, I can make them believe.

The RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE are the older gits with a braincell, like me.

The people who are IN CHARGE are us older cunts who are plausible and reasonable, who can MAKE young people believe in us.

Do not EVER blame them for human feck-ups.


From 18 to thirty is INNOCENT.

Guilty is thirty plus...

-----------------

Footnote.
Gimme a fuxxin break.
Am I a genius or somethin.

cmon someone gimme some support...

 

[Oceans11]

At the very least, 18 to 25 year olds lack discipline in a stressful situation, with a few exceptions...

If you call it on the youngsters, you do nothing more than dodge your responsibilities as a credible member of society.

 

[barman]

You don't have to talk me (age 44) into it.

I have a firm belief that the fundamentals of this abuse go all the way to the top.

In our work, we have a lot of contact with people in the U.S. prison system for non-violent offenses.

While U.S. prisons are pretty much across the board hostile and abusive to inmates, both the Texas and Florida systems rank higher than most for overall abuse of inmates.

Of course, both states most recent history includes having a Bush as governor.

The Bushes view anyone who is incarcerated as deserving of abuse and 'punishment' as opposed to any form of rehabilitation.

Transfer that attitude to a war setting in a foreign country and now we're dealing with inmates who Bush and most of his closest advisers view as less than human. After all, not only are they opposing U.S. interests, they have the gall to refuse accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.

In short, they're going to hell anyway, so what does it matter if we treat them like animals?

It's doubtful that Bush knew the exact techniques being employed, since that would require him to think it through.

More likely is that he turned to Rumsfeld and other leaders in this campaign and told them, "Do whatever it takes to get the information we seek".

After all, he had in his mind successfully taken 600 Afghans and imprisoned them in Cuba without any legal recourse whatsoever. Given that awesome virtual god-like power, he likely views inmates in Iraq as having an equal lack of human rights.

Bushes believes he is appointed by God to lead America. Given that divine endorsement, does it really matter if anyone complains?

If he wasn't at his absolute lowest point in popularity since seizing office in Dec 2000, he would likely not even pretend to apologize, like he did the other day.

The only thing he's sorry for in this sick scene is, "Why the hell did you let those dumbasses take photos??"

It's getting harder and harder for political leaders of any stripe to openly lie and openly conduct murderous campaigns, in the 21st century.

Clinton and Gore found out the hard way, getting busted on Willy's sex life and Gore's smoozing with the Chinese, among other things.

Now Bush and Co are being yanked forward from their 1980s paradigm and being rudely introduced to how the American people will view you once your lies and murders get exposed to the bright sunshine of truth.

 

[barman]

Here's more on the U.S. prison system, including details about the GW Bush led Texas system that was under court sanction for allowing guards to sell inmates for sex, and more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08PRIS.html?hp

excerpts:

The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree during much of the time President Bush was governor because of crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other inmates as slaves for sex.

~~~~~~
In a 1999 opinion, Judge Justice wrote of the situation in Texas, "Many inmates credibly testified to the existence of violence, rape and extortion in the prison system and about their own suffering from such abysmal conditions."

In a case that began in 2000, a prisoner at the Allred Unit in Wichita Falls, Tex., said he was repeatedly raped by other inmates, even after he appealed to guards for help, and was allowed by prison staff to be treated like a slave, being bought and sold by various prison gangs in different parts of the prison. The inmate, Roderick Johnson, has filed suit against the Texas Department of Criminal Justice and the case is now before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, said Kara Gotsch, public policy coordinator for the National Prison Project of the American Civil Liberties Union, which is representing Mr. Johnson.

 

[Oceans11]

Your prison system is actually an affront to civilisation.

BUT

Like Mr Stalin, you keep it within your own borders.

Which means it's bugger-all to do with the rest of us.

--------------------------------------

We only home in on your foreign policys...

 

[barman]

In the past 14 years, our prison population has doubled.

Now this implies that Americans are being twice as criminal as 14 years ago.

In fact it's driven by caging otherwise non-violent and law-abiding drug offenders.

Our country is trying like hell to export their drug policy to you and to Canada.

Fortunately to date, you're telling Wash DC to bugger off....keep it up.

 

[barman]

The United States cages more of its population than does the entire European community.

The U.S. is responsible for caging 25% of the world's inmates though we have just 6% of population.

Yet we have the highest rate of violent crime in the so-called 'free world'.

 

[UncleMoneybags]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Your prison system is actually an affront to civilisation.

BUT

Like Mr Stalin, you keep it within your own borders.

Which means it's bugger-all to do with the rest of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eek,

I'm going to assume you're lightening the situation with some form of ebonics as I can't decipher the intention of a few words in your last sentence.

I think prisons are wasteful and for the most part, unnecessary. However, most people wouldn't like the alternatives I would suggest so it's a bit of a moot point anyway. The affront to civilized people is not the prisons but the criminals who contaminate our society with their behavior IMO. Let's not lose sight of why prisons exist.

 

[barman]

Jails should only be used to separate the public from those who we are afraid of.

Upwards of 1/2 our jail population is non-violent and guilty of no more than possessing drugs that shouldn't be criminal in the first place.

Another 1/4 are people who have stolen or thieved. Putting them in jail does nothing to restore what they stole, it just adds to the 'theft' from the public.

Most states are building prisons and jails at a faster pace than classrooms.

It's more than a little upside down.

 

[Oceans11]

I cant seriously comment on your prison system.

I can only say that it will be a direct extension of the society you have.

Which is your own business, and has bugger all to do with anyone else.



..Just like Iraq.

 

[UncleMoneybags]

barman,

What about drug dealers? Should they be given carte blanche to peddle their product/s to whomever is willing to give their money for purchase of same? Or are you saying that if they grow and/or manufacture it for their own enjoyment that that's OK. Where is it OK to consume their drugs? At the local restaurant? At the local pub? Only in their home?


Assuming your figures are accurate, I find it depressing that so many people know it's a crime but are too careless in the transportation and/or consumption of it to evade detection. Cops aren't totally dumb but they're not as smart as people like to think.

Not to sound cold but if they know their actions are considered commissions of felonies by the district attorney, they should have some kind of plan in place and be on guard constantly.

 

[barman]

UMB: What about drug dealers (etc)?

BAR: We currently have two types of drug dealers in the USA.

First are the legal drug dealers. They are most often alcohol dealers, pharmacies and also other retail businesses which sell over the counter drugs. They are relatively easy to regulate, monitor and control. They pay taxes on their revenues. They routinely check for proper age ID. They require extremely low levels of oversight from police.

Second are the illegal drug dealers. They are most often hidden from the 'public' eye. They are impossible to regulate, monitor and control. They have no motivation to check for age ID. They pay no taxes on their revenues. They sell unlabled and tainted substances which purport to be of certain makeup, but are not. They require huge amounts of oversight from police, who are understandably hindered by having to respect constitutional law.

As should be obvious, the former model is without question superior to the latter model. Therefore it is smart policy to move ALL drug dealers into the first group. We can only do that by ending the bulk of drug prohibition laws.

Prohibition was a disaster in 1920-33 and it is even moreso today, given the wider variety of prohibited drugs and the mega profits which prohibition creates.

~~~~~~~
And yes, it is depressing that people who wish to use the currently prohibited drugs do not educate themselves better about the legal risks and how to best avoid them. It should be noted, however, that in far too many cases police have no compunction about conducting illegal investigations, lying under oath to sustain said illegal actions, and unlawfully profiling by race specific members of the community who are less able to defend themselves due to the high cost of qualified counsel.

 

[jointpleasures]

Prison autrocities - WOW! Autricity - big word. Gravatus - another big word.

Prison autrocities in Abu Ghraib vs. making the varsity sports team as a freshman.

Differences between the two? I haven't heard a whole lot yet.

 

[xpanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barman:

In fact it's driven by caging otherwise non-violent and law-abiding drug offenders.

Our country is trying like hell to export their drug policy to you and to Canada.

Fortunately to date, you're telling Wash DC to bugger off....keep it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in part, at least. The de-criminalisation of pot debate has been removed from the table, citing that there isn't time between now and our election for it to pass. In truth, Mr. Martin's nose is rammed so far up Bush's ass that he can't see the proposed bill anymore.

In Vancouver, the new mayor there has imposed (and campaigned on, I should add) a program called InSite, which is a safe-injeciton house modeled after similar programs in Germany. The ideology behind it is that making drug use safer for both the user and his/her community does not encourage drug addiction, an ideology I tend to agree with. Some head-cheese Yank (John Walters) involved in your 'war on drugs' said the program was very dangerous and warned of the ill-effects this may have on the US's fight to combat drugs illegally being distributed. Our 'drug tourism' will likely lead to a discussion of boycotting Canadian products (*yawn* ... shall we follow it with a discussion about American handgun tourism, too?) ... Vancouver's mayor openly declared him to be an 'idiot.'

At the grassroots level, yes, we are giving DC the finger. At the Federal level, tho, Martin is too preoccupied with his G20 PeaceBaby to be in a position to counter Bush at this time. It's all really pathetic.

 

[barman]

Yes XP, Vancouver mayor Larry Campbell is a great North American.

He recently heard about our organization and immediately asked about joining. We welcomed him and added him to our Advisory Board.

See: http://leap.cc/who/index.htm

Oh, if you or anyone you know in Canada would like to help us arrange a LEAP speaking event, contact me (Steve Heath) via the speakers@leap.cc email address

LEAP events are a gas. It's really refreshing to hear political leaders, cops and/or judges denounce current American drug prohibition.

 

[Phaedrus]

posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I disagree entirely with you P.

The majority of the people that have power at the sharp end are youngsters, the muscle, but the push behind them, are the old fux.

I know what I know because this OLD git knows that the youngsters will follow a plausible old git. I can do it, I can make them believe.

The RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE are the older gits with a braincell, like me.

The people who are IN CHARGE are us older cunts who are plausible and reasonable, who can MAKE young people believe in us.

Do not EVER blame them for human feck-ups.


From 18 to thirty is INNOCENT.

Guilty is thirty plus...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bullshit. Guilty is when you strip a grown man naked, beat him, stick stuff up his ass, and take souveneir photos. Twelve or twenty or two hundred nineteen, makes fúck-all of a difference.

See also:

Boys Will Be Boys and Other Iraqi Foibles


Phaedrus

 

[barman]

Here's a news story about Campbell and other influential Canadians who are calling for an end to Prohibition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pubdate: Mon, 10 May 2004
Source: Vancouver Sun (CN BC)
Copyright: 2004 The Vancouver Sun
Contact: sunletters@png.canwest.com
Website: http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/477
Author: Amy O'Brian
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/mjcn.htm (Cannabis - Canada)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/decrim.htm (Decrim/Legalization)

LEGALIZE MARIJUANA, CONFERENCE AGREES

Beyond Prohibition Group Says Making Pot Legal And Levying Hefty Taxes
Would Benefit National Economy

VANCOUVER - A senator, a former police officer and Vancouver's mayor were
among those calling for the legalization of marijuana at a weekend conference.

The diverse crowd at Beyond Prohibition, a conference put on by the B.C.
Civil Liberties Association, gathered early Saturday morning to hear
arguments for the legalization of marijuana, and to exchange ideas on how
to make legalization successful.

Vancouver Mayor Larry Campbell started off the day with a personal
disclaimer that he has never "inhaled," followed by a bold proposal for
legalization.

"I would legalize this and tax the living hell out of it," Campbell said.
"And I would ensure that every single dollar, every dollar of that tax went
into the health care system."

Similar sentiments were shared by the other speakers, who argued that
lifting the marijuana prohibition would benefit the national economy, boost
tax revenue, and free up police resources to target organized crime and
others who profit from the current illegal drug trade.

Walter McKay, a former Vancouver police officer who is now working on a PhD
at the University of B.C., argued that all illegal drugs -- not just
marijuana -- should be legalized and regulated.

"Far too much time, money and resources are being spent keeping a product
away that the public wants," he said in an interview after his presentation.

"We tried this with prohibition 70 years ago and failed miserably. All we
did was make Al Capone a multimillionaire. We just never learned."

If drugs were legalized and dispensed responsibly, McKay said, police could
turn their focus to stopping organized crime.

"That's where policing is required. We need to stop these shootings and
killings."

McKay envisions a world where marijuana would be sold to adults only at
regulated outlets such as liquor stores, while harder drugs such as heroin,
cocaine and methamphetamines would be available through doctors and
pharmacists.

"It's a social issue and it's been made a criminal issue for over 30 years
and we've seen the results of it," he said.

Senator Pierre Claude Nolin, chairman of the Senate Special Committee on
Illegal Drugs, argued that prohibition's consequences have gone "way beyond
health problems and the growth of organized crime" and now threaten "the
basis of democracy, economy and the rule of law in many countries or
regions of the world."

Nolin said he lobbied former prime minister Jean Chretien and is lobbying
current Prime Minister Paul Martin to legalize marijuana in a responsible,
regulated manner that would incorporate policies on education and prevention.

Despite his push for legalization, Nolin is opposed to Bill C-10, which
would decriminalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana.

The legislation would mean people could not be charged with a criminal
offence for possessing pot, but could be given a ticket.

Instead, Nolin would like to see absolute legalization.

"When the policy is zero tolerance, it's stupid."

Nolin said adequate education and prevention programs cannot be established
with a zero tolerance policy and the federal government needs to listen to
the public's demands for legalization.

"Government reacts to populations. It's not the other way around," he said.