Do i Call, Raise or Fold ?????????

[ProPokerPlayer]

names changed to protect the innocent.lol

Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: p ( $24.07 )
Seat 8: dp ( $30.05 )
Seat 7: allynlong ( $26.75 )
Seat 6: 11 ( $40.05 )
Seat 10: Mad17 ( $24.65 )
Seat 4: tn322 ( $23.75 )
Seat 3: j2 ( $24.05 )
Seat 9: ud ( $24.65 )
Seat 1: vain ( $18.75 )
Seat 2: edwny ( $19.75 )
dp posts small blind [$0.10].
ud posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to allynlong [ Ac 8c ]
Mad17 calls [$0.25].
vain calls [$0.25].
edwny folds.
j2 calls [$0.25].
tn322 folds.
p raises [$0.50].
11 folds.
allynlong calls [$0.50].
dp calls [$0.40].
ud calls [$0.25].
Mad17 calls [$0.25].
vain calls [$0.25].
j2 calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 6c, 9c ]
dp checks.
ud checks.
d17 checks.
vain folds.
j2 checks.
p bets [$5].
allynlong calls [$5].
dp folds.
ud folds.
Mad17 folds.
j2 raises [$15].
p calls [$10].
allynlong ....?????????????

 

[centextiger]

raise

 

[TheTomampDaveShow]

if you are at Party Poker.. call or go all in... thats what all the other scrubs do... you will probably hit your flush although someone probably has trips..... random ... yeah right....

 

[TwoCard]

About $38 in the pot.
Costs $10 to call.
j2 did a check raise.
Without a flush you lose.

Fold !!!

I would have folded when p bets [$5].

 

[QuickLearner]

I'd call because you're getting the proper odds from the pot. If you hit on the turn get your money in RIGHT NOW because anybody with trips has 10 outs to beat your flush. A check-through would be disasterous.

 

[johnskelington]

Fold and wait for a better hand than that. Betting on the come's where a lot of money goes.
that's my take

 

[primetime21+]

All in baby!

Even if you are up against hands like QQ and a set, you are still about 30 percent to win which would make this an OK call given that it will be 3 way

At the stakes your at there is also a decent chance you are up against QQ and K9 or even QQ and KK which would make you a slight favorite in this hand.

Sometimes you have to make a call like this knowing that you are drawing out. Yes you are only on a draw, but given that you will likely be 3 way, the implied odds of calling are too great to pass up. And you have already contributed about 1/5 of your stack to the pot.

Remember that this isnt a tournament and losing this hand isnt as catastrophic as it would be if this was the world series of poker. In a cash game you can always reload. If this was a big tournament, i would lay the hand down.

 

[fordfield17794]

Raise

 

[TomorrowsNewspaper]

disconnect and use your all in protection.

(I actually hate when people do this and have never done it myself.)

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

OK...answer time. 1st the reason for posting this hand. afterwards i was cussed like a dog, called every name in the book, accused of being the dumbest player on party, etc...

My thought was im betting 20 to win 50 on a pretty good shot at having the nut flush...in their defense the thought that 1 of them could hit a full house never crossed my mind....in my defense i was already up over $450 for the week and losing $25 wasnt going to kill me.....

allynlong raises [$20].
j2 is all-In [$8.55]
p is all-In [$8.57]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
allynlong shows [ Ac, 8c ] a flush, ace high.
j2 doesn't show [ 9s, 9d ] three of a kind, nines.
p doesn't show [ 2d, 2c ] three of a kind, twos.
allynlong wins $1.43 from side pot #2 with a flush, ace high.
allynlong wins $0.04 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
allynlong wins $71.15 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
Game #2925956966 starts.

So i put em all in....but really what was the worse play? drawing to the nut flush with 2 cards left to get it or going all-in with 3 of a kind knowing i was drawing to a flush??

some quotes....

"j2: i love how the morons win"
"p: lol he's lucky"
"j2: yea, i made the bet with the best hand"
"j2: the idiot who raise with just a draw to my nuts"
"j2: yea, but when he thinks he made the right move, thats just funny"
"j2: hes a good person to have at your table"
"p: petty cash poor boy"
"j2: haha, you stuck you money in with ACE high.. you had nothing until i was already all in....with the nuts mind you"
"vn: 4 out of 5 flush draws u will lose ally"
"j2: this guy is so retarded"
"j2: no, just tell him good move"
"j2: that way he pays us off 4 out of 5 times"
"j2: you're a dog"
"j2: ignorance is bliss eh?"
"j2: what the hell is wrong with you"

then i hit em with the ultimate comeback...."allynlong has left the table"

 

[primetime21+]

nothing better than playing the hand right, winning and having bozos at your table who don't understand a good play when they see it. good job!

 

[TheTomampDaveShow]

a good play? I wouldnt say that it was the proper/good call, you were whoring it out... but hey you were at Party poker... the whores usually win out... so you got lucky caught your flush.. your the man... you were smart to leave because you would have lost it all back.... Party is all about the rack... give 2 other people trips and give you the flushy.....pot is big = rack is big
how do u do in real live tourneys? Or do you only play online?

 

[TwoCard]

""""""then i hit em with the ultimate comeback...."allynlong has left the table"""""

Indeed a great call.

 

[primetime21+]

a good play? I wouldnt say that it was the proper/good call, you were whoring it out... but hey you were at Party poker... the whores usually win out... so you got lucky caught your flush.. your the man... you were smart to leave because you would have lost it all back.... Party is all about the rack... give 2 other people trips and give you the flushy.....pot is big = rack is big
how do u do in real live tourneys? Or do you only play online?

first off, its not rack, its rake. Second of all, if you calclulate his chances of winning vs the amount he could actually win if he hit is flush, the call was correct.

There is a common misconception that drawing to a flush is always a fishy call. Sometimes it is the proper call. In this circumstance he had a 30 percent chance to win given the opposing hole cards. that was about the worst case scenario. Considering the stakes and the crap cards some of these people hold, he could have been a favorite.

I am not a great math guy, but i am pretty sure if you factor his odds of winning vs the amount of money in the pot and the amount he had already contributed, his call was at least good. It certainly was not bad.

If he had made this call heads up it would not have been a good call as the value would not have been there vs the amount he was risking.

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

"how do u do in real live tourneys? Or do you only play online?"

Wow im glad you asked that! im always looking for an opportunity beat my own drum...lol

Actually i just started playing B/M tournys, and if i may say so myself..im doing pretty damn good!!! in 10 local tournys here ive failed to make the final table just 4 times..thats right 60% final table finishes! lookout Harrington!!! lol nnaaa these are very weak fields but still i think it shows a great deal of tourny patience if nothing else.
This past Saturday i played my 1st big tourny..a 100 rebuy/$15,000 guaranteed...included 2 WSOP winners and at least 1 other wsop player...i finished 12th defeating or at least lasting longer than John Binnetti and our own Playersonly who invited me down to play in it...and i didnt get 1 premium hand in the last hr...had i been able to just steal a blind or 2 id have been at the final table so i thought it went really well....Online i havent been real successful at events over $500 guaranteed....ive won a 7500 guaranteed at Bodog and a few top 3 finishes in 15,000+ events at Party and Stars but nothing compared to some of the other players on this site. Matt, Bozzi, Playersonly, etc.....Just minures ago i lost a WPT sattelitte tourny that i'd had the chip lead in for a good while when my AKs went down to J's.....losing with AK seems to be the story of my online life. according to PokerTracker my win percentage at Stars with AK is 28%....not going to win a lot of money like that!....lol

 

[TheTomampDaveShow]

Pokerpro - thanks for the summary,, you are always an interesting read and shed some new light... I love the game of poker but I just dont think online poker will last... bots do exist and are ruining the game.. bots have no emotion.. humans do. And yes the big sites will take them down if they are brought to their attention but if not they will let them go because of RAKE..be smart and be an affiliate to the big timers.. you will win more!

I apologize to primetime if I offended you ,, RAKE RAKE RAKE...rake rake rake.. sorry I listen to jim rome.. RACK Em'!! but he was still chasing..pot odds or not.. if he did not hit the flushy on the turn then you must go for it on the river..yes in a ring game if you are willing to part with a good chunk of your stack chasing those pot odds then so be it... you gotta whore it out sometimes... again he did the right thing by leaving cause they would be gunning for the fishy!

 

[centextiger]

PPP, he just called you a fish :monsters-

 

[QuickLearner]

From worst to best:

Making a bad call.
Making the proper call and having the other players recognize it.
Making the proper call and being called a fish by the villains.

I probably would have stayed and nut-pedaled for a while. They would have paid well for another crack at you. My favorite response in a situation like this is, "Hey, I just had a feeling!"

 

[johnskelington]

It never ceases to amaze me how it's always the guy that you just finished handing his own ass to that is sure you are the dumbest poker player he's ever seen.

good for you man!

 

[MookieOO]

OK...answer time. 1st the reason for posting this hand. afterwards i was cussed like a dog, called every name in the book, accused of being the dumbest player on party, etc...

My thought was im betting 20 to win 50 on a pretty good shot at having the nut flush...in their defense the thought that 1 of them could hit a full house never crossed my mind....in my defense i was already up over $450 for the week and losing $25 wasnt going to kill me.....

allynlong raises [$20].
j2 is all-In [$8.55]
p is all-In [$8.57]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
allynlong shows [ Ac, 8c ] a flush, ace high.
j2 doesn't show [ 9s, 9d ] three of a kind, nines.
p doesn't show [ 2d, 2c ] three of a kind, twos.
allynlong wins $1.43 from side pot #2 with a flush, ace high.
allynlong wins $0.04 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
allynlong wins $71.15 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
Game #2925956966 starts.

So i put em all in....but really what was the worse play? drawing to the nut flush with 2 cards left to get it or going all-in with 3 of a kind knowing i was drawing to a flush??

First things first: It's MUCH worse to go all-in drawing to the nut flush with two cards to come than it is to go all-in with three of a kind suspecting that your opponent is drawing to a flush. In a H2H situation, the guy with the trips wins about 73.5% of the time.

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=2s+6c+9c&d=&h=Ac+8c%0D%0A9s+9d

Things aren't much better in three-way action if one of the players has an overpair to the board:

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=2s+6c+9c&d=&h=Ac+8c%0D%0A9s+9d%0D%0AKd+Kh

Your odds were actually better than in the prior two situations because there were TWO sets of trips out against your draw --- but you had no way of knowing that:

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=2s+6c+9c&d=&h=Ac+8c%0D%0A9s+9d%0D%0A2d+2c

Looking at the possibilities, you didn't have the odds to either call or raise in this situation. In the long run, both the call and the raise have negative expected values.

So, in summary, your opponents were correct: you got lucky. I have no idea whether or not you're a moron, but this play was a long-term loser. There are charts that summarize odds, and it appears that you should play with one next to you (when playing online, at least).

Good luck.

Mookie