CRUCIAL FACT #1: LIMIT AMBIGUOUS

[Revere14]

The limit for this event was ambiguous.

Evidence:

The England Premier League is the most popular in the world and soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Sportsbooks worldwide routinely accept 5 figure soccer wagers. Whether they accept them by phone, on the internet, or in person is irrelevant.

While their limit PER BET was $500, the actual limit for a soccer wager was not explicitly stated anywhere in their rules. Jay Cohen, one of the WSEX principals, answered this question in April of 2002:

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Q: JC, I don't quite understand fully on what the max bet is at WSEX if you can just bet the max over and over again. I was under the impression if you bet the max on a future (usually $500, sometimes $1k), you cannot bet it again unless the line moves. Am I wrong?

A: I was not there when they programmed the straight futures. I would assume that as long as the line is the same and it is not the same exact amount within 5 minutes (for safety purposes) you could bet it again.
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I made wagers over the amount per BET in the past on many events INCLUDING soccer.

Earlier the same day I placed wagers on 4 different baseball games taking place on 8/22 which also exceeded the “per bet” limit:

Philly +100 vs StL ($1000, $900, $800, $700, $600) WINNER
Florida +130 vs SF ($1000, $900, $800) LOSER
Detroit +1.5 +100 vs Anaheim ($1000, $900, $800, $700) WINNER
KC +1.5 -150 vs Minnesota ($1500, $1350, $1200) WINNER

A week ago someone else (rocketman across the street) made 3 $500 losing soccer bets taking place on 8/17:

http://www.majorwager.com/fusetalk/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=66989

Steve claimed that he wanted to speak to me before the match started to “decide how much action we were going to accept at that number.” He was therefore willing to accept MORE than $500 but LESS than the amount I had bet.

He could have made the specific amount clear by canceling the wagers above the amount he wanted to accept, BEFORE the match started. Instead this was left vague until AFTER the match was completed, at which time all but $500 was cancelled.

Please keep this thread focused on the AMOUNT that was bet.

Revere14

 

[jjgold]

Revere call the guy and reach a settlement, stop stalling!!! I am sure you will be happy.

I am tired of this bullshit.

Good Luck To You and I am sure your pretty sharp so play honestly!!

 

[Amitightornot]

You have done nothing wrong. You just followed Jay Cohens instructions. Steve has to pay you the full amount!

here is why

 

[Jazz]

Fine.

Question 1: have you ever bet $40K on ANY sporting event over the internet before, much less soccer?

Question 2: Why didn't you call to confirm the bets that you placed over a period of a couple of hours would stand?

Question 3: What led you to put so much money down on a single game?

Question 4: was your contact info valid?

Question 5: I have got to assume you have other books - did you also bet at those books on the same or different team?

Question 6: If you don't have other books, then you apparently wagered your entire bankroll on a single game - yes or no?


I don't like them cancelling your wagers after the fact, but there's no way with what I know currently I have much sympathy for your case - you certainly seem to have tried to weasel your way into these bets, and I would bet anyone wagering that kind of cash would either have had to have inside knowlege or much more likely was scalping or middling - if the second, it has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, scalping that much money without knowing for a certainty the book would honor those wagers and if you did, then of course you lost the offset amounts at the other books and you must be hurtin' right now.

 

[soccerbob]

Revere- Come on guy. I know the EPL is very popular worldwide and many books take big action on it. So why didn't you have your money in a real sportsbook instead of an amateur operation like WSEX? I can think of a half dozen books that would have taken your action and and given you the plus money price for the whole 40 dimes you were looking to bet.


So why would you try to circumvent WSEX's betting limits and create a potential problem for yourself which is exactly what happened. If you got the balls to bet 40 dimes on a soccer match, then you should have the brains to bet it with real sportsbooks.

I'm baffled by your actions.

 

[LouDiamond+]

Jazz,
No offense, but your questions are irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what his intentions were, good or bad. The onus was on the bookmaker to cancel prior to the event.

This is not a gray area.

 

[Jazz]

Lou: I don't consider them irrelevant with respect to what he was trying to do - you do have a point on their post-cancellations, but as I said in another post, a pox on both their houses, whatever slick reason Revere had for posting that kind of cash met head-on with ****-ups by WSEX, and there is no way in hell I'm going to support either side. Let them work it out - I'm not going to support whatever Revere was doing, and I'm not going to hold a candlelight vigil for a book too dumb to know how to run a professional book.

p.s. Lou, no offense was taken at all - your point was a good one

 

[LouDiamond+]

Jazz,
I don't disagree that Revere *Took a shot*. But WSEX countered with *their own shot* instead of calling it off.

Hence, the bet stands. Win, lose or tie.

 

[Jazz]

Lou: just curious, do you think he was scalping?

 

[LouDiamond+]

absolutely.

 

[DickyW]

"Steve claimed that he wanted to speak to me before the match started to “decide how much action we were going to accept at that number.” He was therefore willing to accept MORE than $500 but LESS than the amount I had bet"

Since you felt Steve was being "vague" you felt entitled to play the match for 40K?

Did you speak with Steve before the match to detirmine the ammount?

 

[Jazz]

Lou: so do I. Assuming he scalped the entire amount at -105, he stood to make $3K, which means he had to have laid off the bets at other books in the amount of a little over $45,000. Which means someone like this is pretty knowledgeable about what goes and what doesn't go at books, which means he's sharp but also reminds me of the old stock market adage 'bulls make money and bears make money but pigs get slaughtered'. Regardless of whether WSEX backs off and pays, I submit it was pretty greedy and short-sighted of Revere to assume WSEX would not be the kind of shop who might try backing out of those wagers - my God, take your scalp but why did you have to go overboard like this?

 

[ClayHenry]

Jazz- I always respect your opinion and initially I thought that there was no way I could possibly side with a scammer like Revere.

The real problem I see is if they don't pay Revere, then don't they have to refund every player who has ever placed a wager that exceeded the limit over the internet.

 

[LouDiamond+]

Jazz,
IMO, No doubt he was a greedy little pig. But a greedy little pig that knew how to *take a shot*.

Not paying him would set off a scary precedent. (much like what Clay says)

If I may quote BeantownJim quoting Lenny, "If it were my mistake, I'd eat it"

WSEX must have seen a thousand shots taken at them prior to this. They made the mistake of not cancelling the wager prior to the event.

 

[Jazz]

Clay and Lou and others: there is a valid point there about the post-cancellations, I'm certainly not going on the record as saying I think WSEX has every right to screw him over - but these two deserve each other, a way-too-greedy scalper vs. a book that you'd otherwise would have thought was too smart to first, be taken like this and second, to try to get away with cancelling the wagers after the fact. How in hell could you run a shop like WSEX and NOT be in a position to handle this properly? It boggles my mind.

Revere14 - too damn greedy.

WSEX - too damn stupid.