Confused about Social Security?

Search

919

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Messages
9,360
Tokens
http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=ev



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 valign="top"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 border=0 valign="top"><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Confusions about Social Security
Paul Krugman, Princeton University
<!-- END SUGGESTED CITATION -->[/size][/font]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- FILE: /main/production/doc/data/journals/www.bepress.com/ev/assets/volume/issue/article/index.html (cont) --></TD><TD vAlign=top align=right width=175><!-- FILE: /main/production/doc/data/journals/www.bepress.com/ev/assets/pdf_bubble.inc --><!-- FILE: /main/production/doc/data/journals/www.bepress.com/ev/assets/volume/issue/article/index.html (cont) --></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>


[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-2]There is a lot of confusion in the debate over Social Security privatization, much of it deliberate. This essay discusses the meaning of the trust fund, which privatizers declare either real or fictional at their convenience; the likely rate of return on private accounts, which has been greatly overstated; and the (ir)relevance of putative reductions in far future liabilities. SUGGESTED CITATION:
<!-- FILE: /main/production/doc/data/templates/Top/proto_journal/assets/article_citation.inc -->Paul Krugman (2005) "Confusions about Social Security ", The Economists' Voice: Vol. 2: No. 1, Article 1.
http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol2/iss1/art1<!-- FILE: /main/production/doc/data/journals/www.bepress.com/ev/assets/volume/issue/article/index.html (cont) -->

[/size][/font]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
699
Tokens
How about this to confuse people.(read the article) I currently have a job in a state that falls under this provision. Supposedly because I am going to get a state pension if I continue to work, I would not get social security, or very little from other jobs that I have held in my life. I was shocked when I learned this, but then again social security may not be there at all when I am supposed to get it. I used to be jazzed about private accounts but it may never affect me at all unless I work side jobs.

Social Security Shortchange?
January 8, 2003


Up before dawn every day, Marti Flint of Ellsworth, Maine isn't scared of hard work.

She's a teacher's aide, a bus driver and a mother of two.

As CBS News Correspondent Mika Brzezinski reports, what frightens her is the future and going broke when she finally retires.

"My biggest fear is that I am going to be one of those little old ladies who cannot afford tuna and will have to buy cat food," she says.

By the time she's 65, Marti will have paid into social security for 50 years, but "I will only see 40 percent of it," Flint says.

How could that be? In an effort to keep Social Security afloat, Congress passed a law 20 years ago that barred highly-paid citizens, who already have pensions, from receiving full Social Security benefits.

But it's not just highly-paid workers who lose out. In Maine and 14 other states, public servants - teachers, firefighters, police - pay into a state retirement plan, instead of Social Security. Because of that little-known federal law, those workers cannot receive their full Social Security benefits from their private sector work. Like their better paid counterparts, low paid public workers can't "double dip."

So Marti, a teacher's aide for 6 years, a job that gives her a small state pension, will get less than half of her social security - which she's paid into for 35 years. Instead of the projected $629 a month, she'll only get $252 a month when she retires.

"We paid it to them. We loaned it to them with the understanding that we would get our money back," says retired teacher Sue Shaw, who started a national grassroots campaign to repeal the federal law, calling it plain and simple.

"Robbery. They are stealing our money," she says.

Edith Fierst served on the Social Security advisory council under President Clinton. She says the law doesn't need fixing.

"It would cost so many millions and millions of dollars to do this for everybody and why would you want to favor these people," she says.

"All I did wrong was I came to work at a school," Marti tells Brzezinski.

Marti Flint says she just wants what she paid for and feels shortchanged in life.

"In a nutshell, I'll be OK if I don't live too long ... when you are countin' your nickels and dimes, you have to think that way," she says.

Marti can count on one thing: unlike millions of workers, she knows just how little money is coming her way when she retires.


------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

Other states in which Social Security benefits are limited:


Alaska

California

Colorado

Connecticut

Georgia

Illinois

Louisiana

Kentucky

Massachusetts

Missouri

Nevada

Ohio

Rhode Island

Texas
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,027
Tokens
Hey 919 thx for this post I didn't know about this ... now I'm going to look for more info.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
225
Tokens
919, in Texas the teachers and state government workers
dont pay social security, they pay into their respective pension
plans. i dont know why you think they would be eligible for
social security
 

New member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
240
Tokens
No ‘Fool’s Paradise’
Krugman lies about personal accounts for Social Security.

If the liberal establishment is so sure that reforming Social Security with personal accounts is such a terrible idea, then why do they have to lie about it?

<TABLE cellPadding=0 width=1 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript1.1 src="http://oasc03012.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_jx.ads/www.nationalreview.com/@Middle1"></SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript> <!--_version=10; //--> </SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript1.1> <!--_version=11; // --> </SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--if (navigator.appVersion.indexOf('MSIE 3') != -1){document.write('<IFRAME WIDTH=300 HEIGHT=250 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 HSPACE=0 VSPACE=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 SCROLLING=no BORDERCOLOR=\"#000000\" SRC="http://oasc03012.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_sx.cgi/www.nationalreview.com/@Middle1"></iframe>');} else if (_version < 11) {document.write (' ');}// --></SCRIPT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Consider Paul Krugman’s latest New York Times column. It’s designed to scare his readers into believing that “privatization,” as he calls it, “dissipates a large fraction of workers’ contributions on fees to investment companies” and “leaves many retirees in poverty.” To prove this, he offers a smorgasbord of deceptions, errors, distortions, and misquotations about the way reform with personal accounts has failed — or so he claims — in other countries.

Krugman’s primary target is Chile — which became in 1981 the first country to reform its national pension system with personal accounts. Krugman says,

More than 99 percent of Social Security’s revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. In Chile’s system, management fees are around 20 times as high.​
First, Krugman is in error to call the charges “management fees.” About a third of the fees are not management fees at all, but rather premiums for life and disability insurance coverage that are an integral benefit of Chile’s system.

Second, fees should be seen in terms of assets under management — not as a fraction of revenues. According to Chilean economist Salvador Valdes-Prieto, fees in Chile as a fraction of assets under management are about sixty-five one-hundredths of 1 percent — lower than the average mutual fund fee in the United States.

Third, it’s laughable for a professional economist like Krugman to suggest that fees charged by the tiny, over-regulated Chilean financial services industry would in any way represent the best we can do in the United States. Here, large, highly developed, competitive, and relatively unregulated markets create enormous economies of scale.

Most Social Security reform proposals advocate the use of ultra-low-cost index funds, of the type employed by the Thrift Savings Plan — the 401(k) plan for federal employees. Krugman, however, has a lie all ready to counter that reality. He says,

It’s true that costs will be low if investments are restricted to low-overhead index funds — that is, if government officials, not individuals, make the investment decisions … And if there are rules restricting workers to low-expense investments, investment industry lobbyists will try to get those rules overturned.​
I know from personal experience that every word of this is a lie. I used to be an executive of Barclays Global Investors, the firm that has run all the index funds for the Thrift Savings Plan since the program was first started in the 1980s. First, I can tell you that no government officials made any investment decisions whatsoever. My company ran the funds — and every individual federal employee decided for himself or herself which of the funds to invest in.

I can also assure you there was no lobbying to raise fees — we didn’t have time to lobby. Our contract came up for re-bid every 2 years, so we were kept plenty busy competing with other index-fund managers to offer the Thrift Savings Plan suicidally low management fees. In the last bidding cycle while I was still at Barclays, we beat our major competitor — State Street Global Advisors — by committing to manage an S&P 500 index fund for a fee of 4.5 one-thousandths of 1 percent per year. To put that in perspective, the Vanguard Index 500 fund, renowned for its low fees, charges 18 one-hundredths of 1 percent — which is 40 times more than we charged the federal government.

Here’s another Krugman lie about the record of reform in Chile. He says,

as a Federal Reserve study puts it, the Chilean government must ‘provide subsidies for workers failing to accumulate enough capital to provide a minimum pension.’ In other words, privatization would have condemned many retirees to dire poverty, and the government stepped back in to save them.​
Krugman makes it sound as though the Chilean system has failed, and the government had to bail it out. In fact, a safety net for the neediest workers was an intentional feature of Chile’s reform from day one. So nobody “stepped back in” — they were always “in.” And the use of the safety net is actually minimal. According to Senate testimony by Jacobo Rodríguez of the International Center for Pension Reform,

As of March 2002, the government had supplemented 33,029 pensions, including 11,759 old-age pensions, out of over 400,000 pensions. ... the cost to the government of supplementing these pensions has been about $33 million.​
In fact, the Chilean safety net only applies to workers with 20 or more years of participation in the system. Considering that the system is only 23 years old this year, there just aren’t that many workers who are even eligible. And considering that the reformed system provides adequate benefits to retired workers based on only a 4 percent real return from invested assets — and that the real return since inception has been about 10 percent — we’re not going to find a lot of “dire poverty.”

So what about that “Federal Reserve study”? Turns out there’s no such thing. There’s only a 2003 symposium paper by Stephen Kay, a researcher at the Atlanta Fed, whom a source close to the situation described to me as “a young leftie economist who is an ideologue against private systems.” Kay’s paper states right on the cover that “The ideas expressed in this paper are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta or the Federal Reserve System.” It’s deceptive of Krugman to suggest that the paper has the imprimatur of the Federal Reserve System.

And Krugman elided the first half of the sentence he quoted from the paper, which makes it clear that Kay is asserting only that government supplements have “elevated in part” Chile’s long-term fiscal costs of reform.

Turning to the other half of the globe, Krugman tries the same trick with the British equivalent of Social Security. He writes that Britain’s

Pensions Commission warns that those who think Mrs. Thatcher’s privatization solved the pension problem are living in a ‘fool’s paradise.’ A lot of additional government spending will be required to avoid the return of widespread poverty among the elderly — a problem that Britain, like the U.S., thought it had solved.​
This is a flat-out lie. The report of Britain’s Pension Commission “warns” of nothing of the sort. The expression “fool’s paradise” is in reference to “irrational equity markets and delayed appreciation of life expectancy increases” that allowed many British corporate pension plans to “avoid necessary adjustments until the late 1990s.” It has nothing to do with “Mrs. Thatcher’s privatization” — and it’s hardly a “warning,” considering that it describes “necessary adjustments” as having been made during the previous decade.

So what is Krugman’s solution to rescuing Social Security — to keep government from having to “step back in” like Chile’s supposedly did to cure “dire poverty” — and to truly solve a problem that Britain supposedly only “thought it had solved”? Raise taxes, of course. In a Times column two weeks ago Krugman recommended raising taxes by half a percent of GDP, in order to shore up Social Security “into the 22nd century, with no change in benefits.”

Krugman makes the tax increase sound small by expressing it as a percentage of GDP. But in language that working people can understand, his recommendation is the same thing as raising the Social Security taxes that workers pay by about 25 percent, according to a June 2004 Congressional Budget Office report.

And he never mentions that raising taxes is a fix that we’ve tried before, right here in the U. S. of A. That fix failed. Because the Social Security system is fundamentally insolvent over the long term, and gets worse every year, raising taxes only helps for a short time. Remember, the system was on the brink in the early 1980s, and we shored it up by raising taxes. Now it’s on the brink again — and if we shore it up by raising taxes, we’ll just be back on the brink again in another 20 years. Unless we raise taxes again, and again, and again.

And that’s no “fool’s paradise.” That’s hell on earth.
 

bushman
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Messages
14,457
Tokens
I've worked in the industry too.
While I will name no names for obvious reasons, screwing the Funds for every buck in a rising or falling market is the name of the game.

It’s designed to scare his readers into believing that “privatization,” as he calls it, “dissipates a large fraction of workers’ contributions on fees to investment companies”

Good. Because it will.

Custodian fees, Trustee fees, bank charges, Auditors fees, management charges, exit charges, transfer fees, early this, early that.
Fees based on the market value at the start of the period in a falling market, fees based on the end of a period in a rising market, and changing the Scheme Particulars to favour the trustee/manager/custodian plus various misc charges.

In the recent semi-crash around 2000 early exit fees from some top UK firms were hiked from 5% to 25% overnight.

It might be YOUR cash but once THEY get it into THEIR system you guys are fooked.
In a rising market, everyone is your buddy, but as soon as things get rocky it becomes bend-over-time for the ordinary investor.

Social security is one of the last huge pots of easy money that the private finance sector would just LOVE to get their hands on.

----------------------------
Personally I think that SS privatisation is inevitable.
The temptation is huge, it's a licence to print money for the big Funds companies.

The interesting bit for me, is what strategy the private financial sector snake-oil salesmen will use for transferring this wealth from its rightful owners to themselves.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
posted by eek:

Personally I think that SS privatisation is inevitable.
The temptation is huge, it's a licence to print money for the big Funds companies.

The interesting bit for me, is what strategy the private financial sector snake-oil salesmen will use for transferring this wealth from its rightful owners to themselves.

Oh, the irony.

The rightful owners of the money aren't the people who actually earned it ... it is forcibly taken from them and redistributed to the rightful owners, from whom private sector companies want to steal it.

Oh, the irony.


Phaedrus
 

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
3,064
Tokens
Phaedrus said:
posted by eek:



Oh, the irony.

The rightful owners of the money aren't the people who actually earned it ... it is forcibly taken from them and redistributed to the rightful owners, from whom private sector companies want to steal it.

Oh, the irony.


Phaedrus
i beleive thats almost communism
 

bushman
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Messages
14,457
Tokens
The best system would be where people are allowed to choose which set of thieving bastárds get their hands on your social security pot.

Then no-one can blame anyone when those who do choose the private sector lose their shirt.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,555
Messages
13,569,914
Members
100,820
Latest member
rubberguy
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com