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PatPatriot

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<NYT_HEADLINE type=" " version="1.0">Inquiry by U.S. Finds 5 Cases of Koran Harm

</NYT_HEADLINE><NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0">By THOM SHANKER
</NYT_BYLINE><NYT_TEXT>WASHINGTON, May 26 - An American military inquiry has uncovered five instances in which guards or interrogators at the Guantánamo Bay detention facility in Cuba mishandled the Koran, but found "no credible evidence" to substantiate claims that it was ever flushed down a toilet, the chief of the investigation said on Thursday.

All but one of the five incidents appear to have taken place before January 2003. In three cases, the mishandling of the Koran appears to have been deliberate, and in two it was accidental or unintentional, the commander said, adding that four cases involved guards, and one an interrogator. Two service members have been punished for their conduct, one recently.

In announcing preliminary findings of his investigation, which began about two weeks ago, Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, commander of the Guantánamo Joint Task Force, said the Koran mishandling did not occur as part of any effort to demoralize or intimidate detainees for interrogation.

But General Hood declined to give further details until he had completed the investigation, which was started after Newsweek magazine published an article asserting that a separate investigation by the military was expected to find that a Koran had been flushed down a toilet at the detention center. The article, which the magazine subsequently retracted, prompted violence in the Muslim world that claimed at least 17 lives.

"I'd like you to know that we have found no credible evidence that a member of the Joint Task Force at Guantánamo Bay ever flushed a Koran down a toilet," General Hood said in a Pentagon news briefing.

He said that his investigators conducted a new interview with one detainee who had been quoted in F.B.I. documents that were released Wednesday as having said under interrogation in 2002 that guards flushed a Koran down a toilet.

In the new interview, conducted on May 14 as part of General Hood's investigation, the detainee said he was not a witness to any Koran abuse.

General Hood said his investigators asked the detainee whether he personally had seen any incidents of Koran abuse, "and he allowed as how he hadn't, but he had heard guards - that guards at some other point in time had done this."

The general said he could offer no explanation for any contradiction between the detainee's statements to the Federal Bureau of Investigation in July 2002 and the interview conducted by his team on May 14.

Investigators never asked the detainee specifically about a Koran flushed down a toilet, General Hood said, nor did they mention his previous statements under interrogation, "but he was asked about defiling, desecration, mistreatment of the Koran."

It was not clear whether the military had also reinterviewed other inmates who are known, through the interrogation reports that were released on Wednesday, to have reported other instances of mishandling the Koran. General Hood did not say how many people, or whom, his team has questioned.

The five instances in which the Koran was mishandled, General Hood said, were among 13 cases investigated in the past two weeks.

"None of these five incidents was a result of a failure to follow standard operating procedures in place at the time the incident occurred," General Hood said.

But he added that in the initial months after the Guantánamo prison was set up, and until early 2003, there were not explicit, written rules about the Koran. And he said one incident concerned the breaking of another, unspecified rule, rather than the prison's standard operating procedures.

The investigation also explored six more accusations of Koran abuse involving guards. In each of those instances, General Hood said, the guard "either accidentally touched the Koran, touched it within the scope of his duties, or did not actually touch the Koran at all."

Military policy acknowledges that some Muslims view a non-Muslim touching the Koran as a desecration.

In two other instances of the 13 that were investigated, interrogators either touched a Koran or stood over the Islamic holy book during an interrogation, General Hood said.

Neither instance is being termed Koran mishandling: One involved placing two Korans on a television, General Hood said, and in the second the Koran was not touched, and the perceived insult was unintentional.

"We've also identified 15 incidents where detainees mishandled or inappropriately treated the Koran, one of which was, of course, the specific example of a detainee who ripped pages out of their own Koran," the general added.

He appeared to be referring to a report cited repeatedly by Pentagon officials, including Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that a detainee had torn pages out of a Koran and used them to stop up a toilet, perhaps in protest of his treatment.

The abuse of detainees, especially at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, has embarrassed the military and the Bush administration and created a political challenge as they defend the campaign against global terrorism against accusations that it is anti-Islam.

"We're in an environment where people react to impressions," Lawrence Di Rita, the Pentagon spokesman, said at the news conference Thursday about Guantánamo.

"And so what we're trying to make sure people understand is that the impression they ought to have is that the guards, the interrogators, the command down there have been extraordinarily cautious, and yet there have been instances where inadvertent mishandling has occurred or other types of mishandling," Mr. Di Rita added.

General Hood's inquiry is expected to be completed in advance of a wider investigation into contentions of prisoner mistreatment at Guantánamo. That broader report could be even more critical of the military because it is based on statements from F.B.I. agents - not detainees, whose credibility can be challenged - who say they observed abusive and possibly illegal treatment of detainees.

"I want to assure you that we are committed to respecting the cultural dignity of the Koran and the detainees' practice of faith," General Hood said. "Every effort has been made to provide religious articles associated with the Islamic faith, accommodate prayers and religious periods, and provide culturally acceptable meals and practices."

For the inquiry into Koran abuse, investigators reviewed three years' worth of records and 31,000 documents, both electronic files and on paper, the general said.

General Hood said he was confident that "guidance to the guard force for handling the Koran is adequate" at Guantánamo - at least the procedures for handling the Koran ordered in January 2003.

But he acknowledged "that there was a significant period of time at the very beginning of operations in Guantánamo, in which there were not written guidelines" governing how to handle a Koran.

<NYT_AUTHOR_ID>Neil A. Lewis contributed reporting for this article.

This has to be called the greatest non-story ever told.

</NYT_AUTHOR_ID>
</NYT_TEXT>
 

CAPNCRUNCH

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Significant period of time at the beginning of holding of prisoners at Guantanamo when there were no rules regarding Koran pretty much sums it up! American jailers were ignorant at best of sensitivity about Koran. Pentagon is saying "yes, we did it but that behaviour stopped long ago. Why should we care about it now, that was a long time ago."
 
PatPatriot

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Significant period of time at the beginning of holding of prisoners at Guantanamo when there were no rules regarding Koran pretty much sums it up! American jailers were ignorant at best of sensitivity about Koran. Pentagon is saying "yes, we did it but that behaviour stopped long ago. Why should we care about it now, that was a long time ago."
<!-- / message -->
Why is it when i read your post I have the look of a head wound victim looking at a pinwheel?
 
t3a

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CAPN CRUNCH said:
American jailers were ignorant at best of sensitivity about Koran.

how have we gone from caring about whether people are beaten or tortured to talking about 'disrespecting' a BOOK???
 

CAPNCRUNCH

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Patriot said:
Why is it when i read your post I have the look of a head wound victim looking at a pinwheel?
Good one Patriot! (BTW- I love Teddy Bruschi(sp), how is he doing?:lolBIG:
 
t3a

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Patriot said:
"We've also identified 15 incidents where detainees mishandled or inappropriately treated the Koran, one of which was, of course, the specific example of a detainee who ripped pages out of their own Koran," the general added.

He appeared to be referring to a report cited repeatedly by Pentagon officials, including Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that a detainee had torn pages out of a Koran and used them to stop up a toilet, perhaps in protest of his treatment.

HUH? A muslim tore pages out of the Koran? Where is the outrage? When will the riots start, the US is harboring an infidel, they are allowing Muslims to desecrete the Koran by placing toilets near them
 
PatPatriot

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lol...I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

I don't think Teddy is going to play this year.He was on TV about a week ago, he look great.But he was nowhere near playing weight.They says he is at the stadium working out.But I'm sure he is limited.
He is a great guy, really genuine.
He is known to go out to the parking lot when he arrives for games and talk to the tailgaters.
 
xpanda

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t3a said:
how have we gone from caring about whether people are beaten or tortured to talking about 'disrespecting' a BOOK???

Given the mass protesting, it would appear that someone on this side of the divide ought to learn a little about public relations. Would Westerners react that same to their desecrating the Bible? Not likely. But then, they aren't trying to win us over, are they?

Bottom line, it doesn't matter what we think of this ... if you want them to stop shooting at US troops and help to quell the insurgency, you gotta be sensitive to those things that they are sensitive about. Otherwise, you'll be in this war forever.
 

CAPNCRUNCH

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Patriot said:
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lol...I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

I don't think Teddy is going to play this year.He was on TV about a week ago, he look great.But he was nowhere near playing weight.They says he is at the stadium working out.But I'm sure he is limited.
He is a great guy, really genuine.
He is known to go out to the parking lot when he arrives for games and talk to the tailgaters.
Patriot: I am glad we could finally talk about something important, all of our rantings about politics will never amount to a hill of beans in the long run! Im done arguing here about em because I realized we all just keep going round and round and I want off the merry-go-round! But back to Teddy, i think he is still underapreciated by those outside of New England and maybe inside as well. What a stud! Never seen anyone with a nose for the ball on big plays like this guy and I go back to Lombardi days. Very sad to hear of his physical problems at the Pro Bowl and hope to see a full and speedy recovery! A belated congratulations on both Patriots and BoSox championships! Only one question, who woulda thunk 20 years ago both Pats and Sox would reign and Celts would suck? (Playoff team but in the East that pretty much means zero!:lolBIG: ) Also sorry Bourke couldnt get you all a ring in Boston. Whos bigger in Boston, Orr or Bird or neither?
 
PatPatriot

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Given the mass protesting, it would appear that someone on this side of the divide ought to learn a little about public relations.

Yeah right the media ought to.
I mean there has been a lot of ink spilled over some 20 year old marines touching the koran of a suspected or potential mass murders,when he was probably shking down the cell for shanks and contraband,that it goes beyond absurdity.


Nice balance...Whens the last time the NY Times printed a story regarding any acts of kindness or projects some these guys are doing over there that far out weigh the negatives.

At last count there were over 58 front page stories regarding Abu grabass on the NY Times, thats some really fair PR.
 
PatPatriot

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Whos bigger in Boston, Orr or Bird or neither?<!-- / message -->
I think Orr but its probably more of a tossup,along with Ted Williams and now Tom Brady, who will be the king of them all if he is not already.

I only come to the politcal forum to stir the pot and for some mental masturbation and a occasional laugh, and to lick Xpandas avatar.

Other than that I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings,another form of competion I guess.
 
xpanda

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Patriot said:
Yeah right the media ought to.
I mean there has been a lot of ink spilled over some 20 year old marines touching the koran of a suspected or potential mass murders,when he was probably shking down the cell for shanks and contraband,that it goes beyond absurdity.

This might shock you, but it is not the media's job to act as public relations centre for your government.

Unless you're thinking that y'all oughta revert to a Pravda-style of reporting?

The NYT and others exist to sell newspapers, to earn revenues. If the guards at Guantanamo wish there to be no reporting of such acts, they would be wise to not engage in such acts in the first place.
 
PatPatriot

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This might shock you, but it is not the media's job to act as public relations centre for your government.

I wouldn't want them to,but a little balance here and there would be nice.What is a shock to me is how they go after such non-stories.It is not a systemic problem.These are isolated incidents that are blown out of wack.

The NYT and others exist to sell newspapers, to earn revenues. If the guards at Guantanamo wish there to be no reporting of such acts, they would be wise to not engage in such acts in the first place.

You got it wrong.It should be the second place. The people who make Gitmo necessary would be the first place.
 
xpanda

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Patriot said:
I wouldn't want them to,but a little balance here and there would be nice.What is a shock to me is how they go after such non-stories.It is not a systemic problem.These are isolated incidents that are blown out of wack.

Sinc ethe advent of 24-hour news stations, your media has become little more than a dress-rehearsal for the Oscars - all drama, all the time, content and thought-provoking material be damned. The NYT has its share of asstardery as does Fox. Both speak to their audience doing what they are here to do: generate revenue. All you can do is decide which market you are and spend your dollars accordingly.

You got it wrong.It should be the second place. The people who make Gitmo necessary would be the first place.

Your point is well taken but you know we could argue the 'necessity of Gitmo' until we were blue in the face.

ps. there are lots of little bacteria-dudes on your computer screen, love. licking my avatar might not be the wisest move.

heh heh.
 
PatPatriot

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Your point is well taken but you know we could argue the 'necessity of Gitmo' until we were blue in the face.

ps. there are lots of little bacteria-dudes on your computer screen, love. licking my avatar might not be the wisest move.

Your right.We're good.
Its not cooties that bother me its the static electric shock that jumps from the screen.
nite
 
JinnRikki

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Assault On the Media





By E. J. Dionne Jr.

Friday, May 27, 2005; Page A27




<NITF>So it turns out that the FBI has documents showing that detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, complained about the mistreatment of the Koran and that many said they were severely beaten.</NITF>

<NITF>The documents specifically include an allegation from a prisoner that guards had "flushed a Koran in the toilet."</NITF>

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=238 align=right><TBODY><TR><TD width=10></TD><TD width=228></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><NITF>And yesterday, Pentagon officials said investigators have identified five incidents of "mishandling" the Koran by military guards and investigators. It was the first time Pentagon officials had acknowledged mistreatment of the Muslim holy book, though they insisted that the episodes were minor and occurred in the Guantanamo facility's early days.</NITF>

<NITF>What, then, is one to make of the Bush administration's furious assault against Newsweek magazine for bringing allegations about the abuse of the Koran to popular attention?</NITF>

<NITF>Let's be clear: Newsweek originally reported that an internal military investigation had "confirmed" infractions alleged in "internal FBI e-mails." The documents made public Wednesday include only an allegation from a prisoner about the flushing of the Koran, and the Pentagon insisted that the same prisoner, reinterviewed on May 14, couldn't corroborate his earlier claim.</NITF>

<NITF>But it's also clear, to be charitable, that not all was well in Guantanamo. That's why the administration and its apologists -- more about that word in a moment -- went bonkers over the Newsweek story.</NITF>

<NITF>The war on Newsweek shifted attention away from how the Guantanamo prisoners have been treated, how that treatment has affected the battle against terrorism and what American policies should be. Newsweek-bashing also furthered a long-term and so far successful campaign by the administration and the conservative movement to dismiss all negative reports about their side as the product of some entity they call "the liberal media."</NITF>

<NITF>At this point, it is customary to offer a disclaimer to the effect that my column runs in The Post, is syndicated by The Washington Post Writers Group and that The Washington Post Co. owns Newsweek. I resisted writing about this subject precisely because I do not want anyone to confuse my own views with Newsweek's or The Post's.</NITF>

<NITF>I write about it now because of the new reports and because I fear that too many people in traditional journalism are becoming dangerously defensive in the face of a brilliantly conceived conservative attack on the independent media.</NITF>

<NITF>Conservative academics have long attacked "postmodernist" philosophies for questioning whether "truth" exists at all and claiming that what we take as "truths" are merely "narratives" woven around some ideological predisposition. Today's conservative activists have become the new postmodernists. They shift attention away from the truth or falsity of specific facts and allegations -- and move the discussion to the motives of the journalists and media organizations putting them forward. Just a modest number of failures can be used to discredit an entire enterprise.</NITF>

<NITF>Of course journalists make mistakes, sometimes stupid ones. Dan Rather should not have used those wacky documents in reporting on President Bush's Air National Guard service. Newsweek has been admirably self-critical about what it sees as its own mistakes on the Guantanamo story. Anonymous sources are overused. Why quote a nameless conservative saying a particular columnist is "an idiot liberal" when many loyal right-wingers could be found to say the same thing even more colorfully on the record? If the current controversies lead to better journalism, three cheers.</NITF>

<NITF>But this particular anti-press campaign is not about Journalism 101. It is about Power 101. It is a sophisticated effort to demolish the idea of a press independent of political parties by way of discouraging scrutiny of conservative politicians in power. By using bad documents, Dan Rather helped Bush, not John Kerry, because Rather gave Bush's skilled lieutenants the chance to use the CBS mistake to close off an entire line of inquiry about the president. In the case of Guantanamo, the administration, for a while, cast its actions as less important than Newsweek's.</NITF>

<NITF>Back when the press was investigating Bill Clinton, conservatives were eager to believe every negative report about the incumbent. Some even pushed totally false claims, including the loony allegation that Clinton aide Vince Foster was somehow murdered by Clinton's apparatchiks when, in fact, Foster committed suicide. Every journalist who went after Clinton was "courageous." Anyone who opposed his impeachment or questioned even false allegations was "an apologist."</NITF>

<NITF>We now know that the conservatives' admiration for a crusading and investigative press carried an expiration date of Jan. 20, 2001.</NITF>

<NITF>When the press fails, it should be called on the carpet. But when the press confronts a politically motivated campaign of intimidation, its obligation is to resist -- and to keep reporting.</NITF>
 
t3a

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JinnRikki said:
The war on Newsweek shifted attention away from how the Guantanamo prisoners have been treated, how that treatment has affected the battle against terrorism and what American policies should be. Newsweek-bashing also furthered a long-term and so far successful campaign by the administration and the conservative movement to dismiss all negative reports about their side as the product of some entity they call "the liberal media."

EJ Dionne is a liberal hack who will trumpet allegations from people who would also claim that Allah tells them to kill non-muslims as absolute truth - but yet question any statement coming from the Pentagon or White House.

Let's twist his logic back around: Administration-bashing also furthers a long-term and so far successful campaign by the Washingington Post, Newsweek and the liberal movement to dismiss all negative comments about their reports as the product of an attack on the media
 
TheRightWing

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Jinn, Why not just go join the camps in the ME that hate America as much as you do? Do you ever think positive on any matter that has to do with this country or just still pissed that Liberalism is dead for good!
 
t3a

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after the riots over the alleged koran 'abuse' (involving 3 or 4 people if they are even true) die down in Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia do you think Newsweek or anyone else will print an article detailing the thousands of Mosques that have been built in the US and the millions of Muslims who go to them? I guess that news will be greeted with parades in those places and they will march to the US embassy to thank them

After that they can have a new riot about the suicide bomber who blew up 20 people at the mosque in Pakistan and figure out a way to blame the US for that one.
 
JinnRikki

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t3a;
Let's twist his logic back around.
That pretty much sums you and all the bushbots that like to attack the media(and very successfully) up. Twist it, obfuscate it, muddy it, but never ever on pain of banishment from the wingnut organization tell the truth.
 

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