Betfair debacle on Friday

[valueman]

Were any of you affected by the problems on Betfair on Friday when the site was spalshed on numerous occassions. It was apparently due to a bug in a new roll out. The problem occurred all afternoon but seems to be back to normal.

It cost me about $4k as I was about to bet against a 8/13 fav Entendard Indien to be placed in the 1:30 newbury race. The horse was about 1/5 (-500) to be placed.

My gripe is not with Betfair - they had a problem and did their best to resolve it (bad timing for me for them to have this problem admittedly) but there was no credible out for me to get this bet on. I went to Betdaq who offer the same markets - no liquidity and the other exchanges are even weaker.

It is IMO not a good thing for exchange betting customers to have only one plausible out and until the others can make it work we are going to have to stick with Betfair however poor the service may be at the time. Betfair on the whole offers an excellent product so I'm not trying to knock them but the analogy would be if you had 2 minutes before the start of a game and say Pinny was down you'd be able to get your bet on elsewhere. With the exchanges there is no back up plan.

 

[honestabe]

i wasn't affected by it myself, but it was good news for betdaq, the irish exchange who picked up a lot of business.
i thought the liquidity there would have been alright on the racing.

betfair also had trouble with the nissan open where they voided all bets, while most bookmakers paid out on adam scott winning.
of course the punters most annoyed were the arbers who were left in an awkward position. never a bad thing for arbers to suffer occassionally.
this has gone to IBAS, a kind of independent tribunal, to decide whether betfair were right to do this or not.

you might be able to tell i'm not a big fan of betfair. i like the idea and i like the improved odds but don't like the monopoly they have. and i can't see what's to stop them eventually becoming the biggest bookmaking firm in the world and putting a lot of other companies out of business.
and it's more fun to take money from bookmakers rather than other punters.

 

[valueman]

It's all well and good prefering to take money from bookmakers than other punters but the truths are:

1 - If you win consistently you ARE taking money from losing punters.
2 - The bookmaker will cut your limits or close you down if you win consistently whereas an exchange has no reason too.
3 - The exchanges have brought an new era of competition into betting especially horse racing where markets were set to unfair theoretical percentages.

I'm looking at the exchanges long term. The monopoly existence of betfair is harming the sportsbooks because of the better odds they offer but long term I know the bookmakers won't take my business so at least i'll always have an out with betfair. Some healthy competition from other exchanges would be a bonus too.

 

[winbet]

Personally I think Betfair is second to none and until the US population somehow get involved there will never be enough punters for more than 2 exchanges. From a Bookmaking point of view in Britain, it is the same argument as drinking at home or in Pubs. Some people will always pay more for the social aspects of gambling. As for Off-shore Books without shops, if they havent already done so, they will become no more than players themselves, ducking and diving in a so-called sharps world, which is why them holding your money is so precarious.

 

[ChuckSims]

Are the British about ready to allow Americans to open accounts across the pond?

 

[winbet]

Are the British about ready to allow Americans to open accounts across the pond?

Not at the moment Chuck. Any Books looking for long term favours from the government ( casino licences, shop licences, lobbying for law changes etc) are keeping on their right side. There are US citizens who have opened accounts with Betfair when outside of the US and then apparently use a cell phone to call in their bets.

 

[planetwarrior]

Do you use Ibetx winbet? They don't have betfairs liquidity but are an ok backup for us stuff. They now bet aussie races as well.

 

[Rainbow]

It's all well and good prefering to take money from bookmakers than other punters but the truths are:

1 - If you win consistently you ARE taking money from losing punters.
2 - The bookmaker will cut your limits or close you down if you win consistently whereas an exchange has no reason too.
3 - The exchanges have brought an new era of competition into betting especially horse racing where markets were set to unfair theoretical percentages.

I'm looking at the exchanges long term. The monopoly existence of betfair is harming the sportsbooks because of the better odds they offer but long term I know the bookmakers won't take my business so at least i'll always have an out with betfair. Some healthy competition from other exchanges would be a bonus too.

Delmar or Olympic will never cut your limits in any sport except Horses, they just dont book horses high. but but Baseball, Basketball, or Football noway. two real tough books to beat so I suggest you use others.

 

[valueman]

ibetx, betdaq etc can't be considered back up to betfair - they just don't have the volume and hence the lower commissions don't make much difference if the odds are worse and there is no liquidity on certain markets.

There is probably room for one more exchange to be strong other than betfair but the rest of them need to combine to be credible. They will all fall one by one like sporting options if they don't gain strenth - none of the other exchanges make money and how long can that continue?

 

[christof]

ibetx, betdaq etc can't be considered back up to betfair - they just don't have the volume and hence the lower commissions don't make much difference if the odds are worse and there is no liquidity on certain markets.

There is probably room for one more exchange to be strong other than betfair but the rest of them need to combine to be credible. They will all fall one by one like sporting options if they don't gain strenth - none of the other exchanges make money and how long can that continue?

I've never used Betfair, because I'm American, but I am happy with Tradesports. The horses are pretty weak, but the "featured games", i.e. TV games, have volume and liquidity until the final buzzer.

I use them almost exclusively now, and I just noticed they raised their Neteller withdrawl limits to $50,000 (2 free / mo), so they can't be doing that poorly.

 

[peskypup]

staggered

I am staggered that anyone with any nouse would want to say that Betfair has in any way been bad for punters, honest abe.

I only had to win 9 out of my first 11 bets with hills at $300 a pop to be cut to $40 on most sports. The reason being that my betting was "clever" whatever that means. Mostly I bet minor sports like tennis & rugby where the folk setting the lines are pretty piss poor a lot of the time.

The good thing about the exchanges is you can always offer a bet if the price you want isn't there. Even in the minor sports there is a good chance it will be matched as long as you're not too greedy.

As you correctly point out most US books do not limit folk simply for the crime of knowing their sports well. So even though I am a UK punter I would guess that only about 25% of my bets are with UK books, about 25% exchanges and 50% USD books.

It's possible that the UK Gvt may impose conditions on the aggression with which UK books limit winners, in return for more freeing up of the gaming laws. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[valueman]

who said betfair was bad for punters?

 

[nimue77]

It's all well and good prefering to take money from bookmakers than other punters but the truths are:

1 - If you win consistently you ARE taking money from losing punters.
2 - The bookmaker will cut your limits or close you down if you win consistently whereas an exchange has no reason too.
3 - The exchanges have brought an new era of competition into betting especially horse racing where markets were set to unfair theoretical percentages.

I'm looking at the exchanges long term. The monopoly existence of betfair is harming the sportsbooks because of the better odds they offer but long term I know the bookmakers won't take my business so at least i'll always have an out with betfair. Some healthy competition from other exchanges would be a bonus too.

What monopoly? Ever heard of Tradesports? And there are other exchanges as well.

 

[winbet]

nimue,

Its 8.00pm (EST) and tradesports highest volume NBA game is Orlando v Cleveland taking $387. Compare this to Betfair that has taken 11,000 Euro on the game with US Citizens banned, its also 1.00am here on a tuesday night where there has been live european champions league being played.

 

[acw]

winbet,

More so Tradesports has this type of **** on their site:

Material Unrepresentative Price Trading

The Exchange rule on Material Unrepresentative Price Trading is designed to ensure as far as practicable that Members who trade at significant bone fide price errors have a mechanism to have the trades investigated by the Exchange and cancelled if the Exchange determines in its absolute right that is the appropriate action in all the circumstances. Furthermore, this rule highlights that Members who take or attempt to take advantage either knowingly or not of Material Unrepresentative Price orders should have no expectation of profiting from the Material Unrepresentative Price orders of other Members.

If the Exchange determines that a transaction in a Contract has taken place at an unrepresentative price the Exchange may, within its sole discretion, cancel the transaction as soon as practicable. The Exchange may consider the following factors when considering whether to cancel a transaction:

the opening price levels of the Contract on the System;
the current market conditions, including levels of activity, volatility and whether the market was "in-running";
the last trade price for the Contract;
the information regarding price movements in related markets or Contracts, the release of economic data, or other relevant news immediately before or during the trading session;
a manifest error;
the proximity of the trade to the close of the market; and/or
the impact of the erroneous transaction on other transactions
the fair market price if one exists at the time of the transaction
the financial significance and/or materiality of the transaction
whether a cancellation would be equitable in the Exchanges absolute opinion on all party’s to the trade when all the circumstances are considered.
When the Exchange cancels a transaction in a Contract because of an unrepresentative price, the Exchange shall promptly notify the Member(s) of the cancellation by electronic mail or through any other means that the Exchange deems appropriate.

A Member that executes a transaction in a Contract at a price that he/she believes is unrepresentative may for a non-refundable fee of $200, (request within 10 minutes when a contract is considered 'in-running' or 'live' by the Exchange in its absolute right, or within one Trading Session in all other circumstances of the Order’s execution) contact the Exchange to seek by mail on help@tradebetx.com with a subject line "Material Unrepresentative Price" to cancel the transaction.

If the Member does not have sufficient funds in his or her trading account to cover the non-refundable fee the request will not be entertained by the Exchange. The Exchange will respond to such a request as soon as practicable stating that the request has been received, indicating an approximate time for a formal response and at such time the fee will be taken from the members account.

The Exchange is not obliged to act on any request and the Exchange’s cancellation or modification of transactions pursuant to this Rule will be final.

While it is not possible to comprehensively define an unrepresentative price, purely for guidance purposes only the Exchange may consider a price that is 20% or greater away from what the Exchange considers to be fair value on a 0-100 contract to be unrepresentative price. Furthermore, in volatile, fast moving or in-running markets it is possible that a higher significance level than 20% will be appropriate.

Try to find the same on BetFair! You can imagine how these guys actually are trading themselves on their own exchange and when it suits them, they will execute it for whatever reason!

 

[valueman]

For anyone who knows anything about exchange betting, betfair is so far ahead of the rest of the exchanges it is scary.

Tradesports probably do about 1% of the turnover of betfair if that. Betdaq maybe 5% of betfair and ibetx maybe 1% also. There is no credible alternative in the exchange world unless you're betting tiny amounts and don't really care about the price you get.

Betfair on top of that have the best site.

 

[acw]

valueman,

You are 100% about horse racing!
On the European football I have lost some patience with BetFair.
I kind of hope Mansion will start doing better than them.

 

[pier0]

<TABLE class=contentpaneopen cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=contentheading width="100%">07-03-2005 Betfair to delay upgrade of the site until after the Cheltenham Festival </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=contentpaneopen cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width="70%"></TD><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>An attempted software upgrade caused the site to collapse three times on Friday, before the final decision to close trading for a 90-minute period.

"The site was slowing down and crashing so we decided to take it down in the afternoon and then bring it back up after racing, and the site went back to what it was before the upgrade," commented a Betfair's spokesman.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[christof]

Tradesports probably do about 1% of the turnover of betfair if that.

I think you underestimate Tradesports for American sports.

Seton Hall/Georgetown $ matched comparison:
Betfair: $149 (not a typo)
Tradesports: $104,470

Future bets to win NBA championship:
Betfair: $74,062
Tradesports: $563,040

You might be mistaking the "volume" at tradesports for the "money matched" at Betfair. Each "volume" share equals $10 in matched bets.

I hate to sound like a TS shill, but I like 'em alot and the more people that join up the better.

 

[valueman]

Fair play to TS on US sports - i was talking total turnover and 1% is about right.