All the way from the top ... Bush authorises torture?

[xpanda]

Bush authorises torture?.

Let's play Predict the Response, shall we??

"But 9/11 they 9/11 behead 9/11 us 9/11 and 9/11 that 9/11 was 9/11 only 9/11 hazing 9/11 anyway 9/11 ACLU 9/11 are 9/11 commies 9/11 liberal 9/11 media 9/11 40 days 9/11 40 nights 9/11 f'n 9/11 PC war 9/11."

Not only is this type of interrogation tactic against Geneva and your own laws (oh, I know, but these rules don't apply to these prisoners ... convenient that!) but torturing prisoners is completely counterproductive.

 

[JDeuce]

As usual, you're plain wrong XP. Lets just pretend for a second that the ACLU isn't really a psycho communist organization with an insidious agenda, and this article is true.

The only methods which this article stated Bush directly approved were these:

The two-page e-mail that references an Executive Order states that the President directly authorized interrogation techniques including sleep deprivation, stress positions, the use of military dogs, and "sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc."

Then you said:

Not only is this type of interrogation tactic against Geneva and your own laws

BZZZZZZZZZT....wrong. None of those violate the GC...go read a copy yourself.

(or just read this): http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/12/135649.shtml

Not to mention, you finally seem to understand that the GC does not apply to terrorists...so you have zero room or reason to b*tch. Why should we ease up on them when we don't have to?

but torturing prisoners is completely counterproductive.

Interesting. What exactly are you basing this hypothesis on...other than your anti-Americanism? Do you truly believe that no interrogators have ever gained any valuable information through the use of these techniques, but have done this entirely for sadistic pleasure all these years?

What do you propose we do instead...take them to a massage parlor, and ask them questions while some swarthy therapist rubs their back?

Must be awfully nice to sit cozily in a Toronto coffee shop and pontificate about what big, bad bullies the United States are...knowing full well that if some country or militant group ever decided to attack you, we'd be the first ones you'd call to come protect your sorry asses.

We are the USA...the greatest, most powerful nation on earth. We're going to stay within the rules and do things as we see fit. If you don't like it, go f*ck yourselves.

 

[docmercer--banned]

JDeuce:

Nice commentary: "We are the USA...the greatest, most powerful nation on earth. We're going to stay within the rules and do things as we see fit. If you don't like it, go f*ck yourselves"

This USED to be a great country ... this has become a Godless country that sets up puppet regimes all over the world and then turns around and bombs the hell out of em and uses flimsy excuses that we are "liberators"

We now a pack of Neo-Cons in the White House who actually preach what you believe ... Bush and Cheney both belong to Satantic cults and both live for the blood of wars ..

This country accepts corruption in daily business practices .. look at your corrupt VP and the number of folks who honor Cheney ... a man who said Hussein is an evil man but Cheney had no problems making illegal sales to Hussein while running Halliburton ... a man who met with Enron officials in the White House days before the scandal broke and refuses to hand over documents ....

This country has porn everywhere ya turn .. this country has is taking CHRIST out of Christmas ... homosexuality has exploded in the past few years .. this country is bankrupt and we have killed thousand upon thousands of innocent Iraqis by illegally invading a country that had no ties to 9-11 ....

I have been an American my whole life ... to hear folks brag this country is so much better than other countries has become laughable with the way corruption has crept into and is accepted by the majority of Americans ...

Again, this USED to be a great country ... Rome burned from within and that is what is happening as the USA enters its final phases of being a World Power

 

[xpanda]

Not only is this type of interrogation tactic against Geneva and your own laws

BZZZZZZZZZT....wrong. None of those violate the GC...go read a copy yourself.

(or just read this): http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/12/135649.shtml

The ONLY reason why these techniques do not violate Geneva is that the prisoners and Guantanamo do not fall under the jurisdiction of Geneva. The techniques themselves, if applied to literal prisoners of war (as opposed to these, oh I guess, metaphorical prisoners of war at Gitmo) are against the GC, which your little Newsmax article fails to defend.

Not to mention, you finally seem to understand that the GC does not apply to terrorists...so you have zero room or reason to b*tch. Why should we ease up on them when we don't have to?

We've already argued all of this .... but:

So you found a loophole in the law, goody for you. "Enemy combatants." But you know it's bullshît. Your defense is a technicality, not a moral/ethical justification.

Would you be okay with this is if the techniques were used on Americans within the American justice system? Or do you have any concerns that future American POWs will receive the same consideration from their captors?

but torturing prisoners is completely counterproductive.

Interesting. What exactly are you basing this hypothesis on...other than your anti-Americanism? Do you truly believe that no interrogators have ever gained any valuable information through the use of these techniques, but have done this entirely for sadistic pleasure all these years?

Ummmmm ... there's a reason why torture is outlawed in our respective countries. Not only do we consider it inhumane, but it doesn't work. Confessions must come from one's own volition if they are to be meaningful.

Must be awfully nice to sit cozily in a Toronto coffee shop and pontificate about what big, bad bullies the United States are...knowing full well that if some country or militant group ever decided to attack you, we'd be the first ones you'd call to come protect your sorry asses.

Oh, spare me the hyperbole. A/ I might remind you of Afghanistan and Haiti, you pompous prick, and B/ the ONLY country with the capability and the desire to take over Canada is YOURS.

If we were attacked and you came to our side, that would amount to ... ummm ... oh yeah, payback.

We are the USA...the greatest, most powerful nation on earth. We're going to stay within the rules and do things as we see fit. If you don't like it, go f*ck yourselves.

And that's why we love you so.


Do you have any opinion about the fact that Bush may well have ordered this??? That your commander in chief is finding ways to violate, in principle (not in law), the standards of war and civil liberties that we in the West are supposed to hold in some esteem? Does this perhaps raise an eyebrow that Abu Ghraib wasn't just a handful of wayward vigilantes, but a systemic pattern of abuse from the highest levels of your gov't?

More importantly, do you think y'all make good Leaders of the Free World when this is the image the world gets?

 

[docmercer--banned]

Xpanda:

The Bushies are in denial about everything ...

Easier for them to admit being Gay than to admit that Bush, Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld are Modern Day Nazi Stormtroopers

The corruption under GWB takes the word to another level

 

[DarrylParsons]

:aktion033 Nice post Doc M. (The first one of yours in this thread I mean)

 

[eek.]

Breaking the spirit, if not the law of the Geneva Convention does US credibility no favours.

Heck, one Japanese excuse for mistreating allied POWs was Japan not being a Geneva Convention signatory.
Does that make what the Japanese did OK?

If you really want international credibility, there are basic standards that need adhered to.

Otherwise, whenever the USA mentions 'human rights' people will look at it as they would with places like China etc when they mention human rights.

Which is basically:
"get your own house in order first, before you start preaching to the rest of us"

 

[Jointpleasure]

The coalition drops precision bombs while the Muslim's brutally slice the infidels throats in joy. The compassionate GW allows American's to be killed while the Muslims wouldn't shed a tear sacrificing their own women and children to guard the themselves. The democrats have forecasted failure in Iraq and they do have a credibility problem. The press likes nothing better than a dead soldier story, a panty gate story, or the hidious atrocities in the resort town of Guantanomo Bay.

So the people in the red counties sit, and wait, and say - Don't we have better bombs George?

 

[xpanda]

The coalition drops precision bombs while the Muslim's brutally slice the infidels throats in joy.

Terrorists are your new moral benchmark, are they? So long as they're worse, you and yours are in the clear?

 

[Jointpleasure]

Terrorists are your new moral benchmark, are they? So long as they're worse, you and yours are in the clear?

As long as America's finest are the first line of defense keeping me and mine safe, and as long as I have gun in the house to keep me and mine safe - I hope to see another sunny day. Moral benchpress - What's that?

 

[GAMEFACE]

I wish we had a leader like myself, this **** would have been over. I could give a ratz azz what the liberal media would say. I promise I would be charging some of these traitors. Fallujah would have been leveled long ago and the mullahs in Iran hearts and minds would have seen the light. The midget would be silent. What can I say Americans are conservative, but liberalism has infected our leaders thus allowing PC to run amok. Many more bombs less troops.

 

[xpanda]

I wish we had a leader like myself, this **** would have been over.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[JDeuce]

The ONLY reason why these techniques do not violate Geneva is that the prisoners and Guantanamo do not fall under the jurisdiction of Geneva.

Wrong again. Since Newsmax didn't convince you, how about the San Fran Chronicle? Not exactly a bastion of conservatism...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/13/MNG6E6KL691.DTL

None of the techniques, when used in 'moderation' violate the GC. Like it says in the article, sleep deprivation is fine as long as it isn't for an excessive amount of time.

So far, so good for the good guys in red, white, and blue.


Would you be okay with this is if the techniques were used on Americans within the American justice system?

They already are in quite a few cases. When the FBI took down a bunch of the Gambino crime family, a lot of the arrested had a bright light shined into their faces for hours until they started singing. Let me know if you need a link to that, and I'll be glad to find one.

It's called interrogation, and it isn't meant to be pleasant.


Or do you have any concerns that future American POWs will receive the same consideration from their captors?

Actually I'm more worried that one of our soldiers is going to have his ears (or even his head) hacked off. Jointpleasure isn't saying that our goal is to sink to the level or terrorists...he's saying (like I've been for months) that if these terrorist assh0les don't have to play by the rules, then why should we?


Ummmmm ... there's a reason why torture is outlawed in our respective countries. Not only do we consider it inhumane, but it doesn't work.

Inhumane? In a lot of cases, yes. Doesn't work? That could be the most inane statement I've ever read. Seriously. If torturous methodology "doesn't work" then why would it have taken place for hundreds of years in countless wars? Of course it 'works.' Everyone has a breaking point, and if you're being tortured...you're going to find out what it is pretty quickly.

Even the fear of torture works. Why do you think Iraqis weren't super anxious to speak out against the Hussein regime when they were living in miserable conditions? It wouldn't have anything to do with a torture chamber waiting for them, would it? Nah...crazy coincidence, right?


A/ I might remind you of Afghanistan and Haiti, you pompous prick, and B/ the ONLY country with the capability and the desire to take over Canada is YOURS.

So now the USA wants to take over Canada? Pfft. Why in God's name would a gigantic patch of useless ice be in our interests?

And please tell me specifically...from what exactly does the US owe Canada such a big favor?


More importantly, do you think y'all make good Leaders of the Free World when this is the image the world gets?

Honestly, I couldn't care less anymore. The rest of the world is the way they are...and you're kidding yourself if you think they are getting unbiased reports of whats really going on in America. Nobody can do anything to change that.

It's pretty simple for the rest of the world, actually. Don't f*ck with us, don't build nukes, and we'll get along just fine. I sure as hell don't want a leader who's only interested in tapdancing in a monkey suit to appease everyone else. I want a guy like GW who will have the courage and foresight to spare his own country from a nightmare like the Kyoto Treaty, for example.

 

[GAMEFACE]

Silly sh!t.

 

[JDeuce]

Here comes Doc Mullah...posting so much sh*t on here that my screen smells.


This USED to be a great country ... this has become a Godless country

You can thank the ACLU for trying to bring us down that path


that sets up puppet regimes all over the world and then turns around and bombs the hell out of em and uses flimsy excuses that we are "liberators"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did they not attack us first? We are fighting back...and thankfully, fighting back hard.


Bush and Cheney both belong to Satantic cults and both live for the blood of wars ..

That's really interesting. Do they go to these cult meetings before or after they attend Catholic churches on Sundays?

Live for the blood of wars? Give me a break. You need to seek mental therapy asap...seriously.


This country accepts corruption in daily business practices ..

Funny...then why all the fuss about Enron, and initiation of corporate responsibility acts by GW's administration?


Cheney .. a man who said Hussein is an evil man but Cheney had no problems making illegal sales to Hussein while running Halliburton

Cite me some specific examples, will ya? And I'm curious...what are your thoughts on your hero Clinton selling top secret weaponry to the f*cking Chinese?


This country has porn everywhere ya turn ..

Where, exactly? You've piqued my interest to move there...


this country has is taking CHRIST out of Christmas ... homosexuality has exploded in the past few years ..

Again, you can thank your local ACLU chapter for these.


we have killed thousand upon thousands of innocent Iraqis by illegally invading a country that had no ties to 9-11 ....

First, for all the Iraqis who were accidentally killed, how many Iraqi lives do you think were spared by our invasion? You know...the ones who would have otherwise died in torture chambers. You're truly mad if you think we've killed more people than Saddam would have killed since he took over.

Secondly, why don't you go check out a book called "The Connection" by Stephen Hayes. He has numerous pieces of proof that Saddam's regime, while maybe not connected wth 9-11, DID have connections with Al Qaeda.


Rome burned from within and that is what is happening as the USA enters its final phases of being a World Power

Sorry...as much as you hope this will happen, it won't. When history looks back at this administration, they'll look on Bush with the same reverence they do Wilson and FDR.

 

[GAMEFACE]

I don't know what to make of Doc Mullah. Doc knows the muslims want to blown everyone up that doesn't convert, but on the other hand everything is Bush and Cheneys fault. I don't get the guy. Doc makes no sense, the only consistant belief is it's Bushs fault and the muslims will blow us and Israel up. I don't get Doc, where do you stand?

 

[xpanda]

None of the techniques, when used in 'moderation' violate the GC. Like it says in the article, sleep deprivation is fine as long as it isn't for an excessive amount of time.

"In moderation." Can you prove, without blinking, that they're using these techniques in moderation? Further, what constitutes an "extended period" of sleep deprivation? My OP said 'days at a time.' Seems to me that would be an extended period ...

Find me the bits from Geneva to back up your assertion. I think you're making it up.

It's called interrogation, and it isn't meant to be pleasant.

If it's only 'interrogation' that is happening at Gitmo, then why all the secrecy? Why the need to ask the Supreme Court to rule on the admissability of evidence obtained from torture?

Actually I'm more worried that one of our soldiers is going to have his ears (or even his head) hacked off. Jointpleasure isn't saying that our goal is to sink to the level or terrorists...he's saying (like I've been for months) that if these terrorist assh0les don't have to play by the rules, then why should we?

Because we aren't them. We should behave by our own standards, not theirs. That's why.

Inhumane? In a lot of cases, yes. Doesn't work? That could be the most inane statement I've ever read. Seriously. If torturous methodology "doesn't work" then why would it have taken place for hundreds of years in countless wars? Of course it 'works.' Everyone has a breaking point, and if you're being tortured...you're going to find out what it is pretty quickly.

Of course they'll talk ... but will it be credible?? That's why it was outlawed. The evidence was routinely thrown out of court on the basis that people will say anything when they're threatened.

Even your own high courts have made these same assertions. It's not like I'm making it up.

So now the USA wants to take over Canada? Pfft.

Disingenuous interpretation of what I stated, and you know it. I am really tired of yanks expecting us to roll over and beg for a cookie from you because you'll protect our asses from all these mythical, imaginary fücking boogiemen we've got breathing down our necks. For sixty years, we have followed you into your wars, not ours, and have not once required that you come to our defence. Not one time. And I give you: Korea, Haiti, Afghanistan, Panama ....

And please tell me specifically...from what exactly does the US owe Canada such a big favor?

On 9/11, 20,000+ Americans were stranded at Canadian airports. Almost half of them were housed in the homes of Canadians. The remainder were tended to by various aid agencies, hotels, airports, etc. Our fire fighters and police forces and health care workers travelled en masse to NYC to help. Then we sent a troupe to Afghanistan, and currently have the second-largest NATO force there. Our first four casualties there were at the hands of reckless American 'friendly' fire.

You're quite welcome.

And all of this, without even touching on NAFTA, or the Byrd amendment, or your country's interference in our drug laws .... and every other bend-over you throw at us.

 

[xpanda]

Geez, JD ... even the douchebags in the WH can pretend to take the matter seriously.

W.House Expects Probe of Iraq, Guantanamo Abuses

Tue Dec 21,11:58 AM ET

By Adam Entous

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House said on Tuesday it expected a full investigation of prisoner abuses in Iraq (news - web sites) and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, after new FBI (news - web sites) memos described detainees facing beatings and having lit cigarettes placed in their ears.

"If there is abuse that occurs, we expect it to be investigated fully and people to be held accountable, and measures taken to make sure that it doesn't happen again," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.


"Uh, you know, until next time." (Okay, okay, he didn't say that.)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...20041221/ts_nm/security_bush_interrogation_dc

 

[xpanda]

Secondly, why don't you go check out a book called "The Connection" by Stephen Hayes. He has numerous pieces of proof that Saddam's regime, while maybe not connected wth 9-11, DID have connections with Al Qaeda.

Stephen Hayes is a neocon apologist extraordinaire. The guy's been all over the country trying to pimp this book (published by Murdoch's company, you know, the Fox News guy) since the 9/11 commission stated that the two did not have a WORKING relationship. Please note the difference.

According to Hayes' expectations of 'evidence' and 'verifiable information', the US itself oughtta be strung up for its very long relationship with bin Laden. That's how disingenuous this dink really is.

Yes, I've read his book.

(I know you're going to bring up the Zawahiri $$ from Saddam, but you need to know, and Hayes doesn't tell you, that Zawahiri was not working with bin Laden at the time. Stuff like that.)

 

[charleslanger]

Hmmm...All of a sudden we have so many intelligence & warfare experts...

It's really very simple:

This is all classified work: let the intelligence-gathering pros do their work & obtain as much info as they can-- give them the necessary privacy, latitude & TIME.

And stop clamoring for the release of everyone:

terrorist Abdul who lives in country A, moves to country B(where he has no business being) to kill & torture-- what options are now left to do with him?

The first thing you do NOT do is hold public trials, release people. This has never been done while a conflict is in progress: it would be sheer folly!

We also do not need to invite the Red Cross to vouch that we're goody two-shoes(especially since it compromses intelligence/security)-- we don't go around killing or threatening our neighbors in this hemisphere: our bona fides have long been established, unlike a lot of our neighbors who collaborated with the Nazis.....

The only realistic things you can do with such enemy combatants:

squeeze any useful information you can utilizing as many necessary methods and as much time as necessary-- in SECRET: once the prisoners' names & addresses leak out, there goes any incentive to give us any info, as their families can be retaliated against......

and as with any serial killers & rapists:

what would you do with them? Death sentence, life imprisonment, scare them a little and release them? Is this what you would do in your own communities when you apprehend sadists? How will an innocent family in Iraq, that had a member killed & tortured, feel when we release the perpetrators to again terrorize their neighborhood again?

THIS IS NOT a typical conflict between two countries, like in the Falkland incident-- where a treaty is signed and everyone goes back home & to work.
Those societies are not like ours:
say i commit a heinous crime-- when i get home, even if i have violent male relatives-- at least there will be plenty of female relatives: mother, grandmothers, aunts, sisters, etc. chiding me for choosing violence; over there: usually they'd not even be allowed to speak up.

Let's interject a little common sense and not stick up so much for those who will likely still try to kill us & our neighbors.