a question......

[archimedes]

for those that do not support the current war in Iraq. How do you justify "supporting the troops?" How can you be against a war, but in favor of those that participate in the warring. Leaders have been duping morons into believing that engaging in warfare is honorable, courageous, heroic, yada, yada, and yada for thousands of years. Should stupidy be supported? (Note: I do consider engaging in warfare to protect one's family to be honorable. However, that situation is nearly non-existent in U.S. history(pending argument), and certainly non-existent in the last century.)

Imagine a war in which you felt a participating nation was clearly in the wrong. Did you/would you support those troops? If not, how do you justify supporting the current U.S. troops in Iraq(for those that of you do not support the war). Hiding behind the irrationalities of patriotic thought is not suffice.

Also, being unsupportive towards U.S. troops is certainly not the same as wishing harm upon them, at least not in how I define it. Thanks.:drink:

 

[D2bets]

The best way to support to troops is to support bringing them home as soon as possible and to vote against all chickenhawk neocons in the future.

 

[edub69]

"Support the troops" is a meaningless phrase the way it is thrown around. If a politician says that we need to support the troops, they are really saying that we need to support the decision of the politician to place the troops in harm's way. It is a copout used by politicians to deflect attention off of their decision by implying that anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't "support the troops" and is by extension "unpatriotic".

 

[D2bets]

"Support the troops" is a meaningless phrase the way it is thrown around. If a politician says that we need to support the troops, they are really saying that we need to support the decision of the politician to place the troops in harm's way. It is a copout used by politicians to deflect attention off of their decision by implying that anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't "support the troops" and is by extension "unpatriotic".

Sharp observation, edub.

 

[Caesar]

while i believe the war to be illegal and mr bush should be in jail, i really cant say i support the troops either, except that they should have all the necessary equipment to get the job done and give a viable exit strategy to keep morale high......

when i hear about the sacrifice they are making it makes me remember my days in the army and remember thinking that except for the elite units and the majority of the marines, the only sacrifice these kids are making is avoiding a minimum wage job flipping burgers

 

[archimedes]

"Support the troops" is a meaningless phrase the way it is thrown around. If a politician says that we need to support the troops, they are really saying that we need to support the decision of the politician to place the troops in harm's way. It is a copout used by politicians to deflect attention off of their decision by implying that anyone who doesn't agree with them doesn't "support the troops" and is by extension "unpatriotic".

exactly.arty:

Patriotism, nationalism, loyalty to one's country- whatever you want to call it- is the reason why true democracy doesn't exist, and why what is considered democracy is going to continue to be spread throughout the world. In governmental systems in which the people do not have a "say," not only does the government have greater difficulty pushing its agenda, the people will eventually rebel and overthrow it. That is where the beauty of the democratic system becomes evident. If you give the people a say, but condition them to say what you want them to(through the mass media, mass schooling, etc.), it is much easier to push an agenda, and the life expectancy of the government is much longer. There is no easier way to condition citizens to turn off object thinking towards their government than to teach them to be patriotic.

 

[PatPatriot]

the people will eventually rebel and overthrow it.

There is no easier way to condition citizens to turn off object thinking towards their government than to teach them to be patriotic.

No goverment gets overthrown unless their is loyalty or "patriotism" towrd the rebellion and what the rebellion stands for...Or in other words. Whats the alternative?

I know where my patriotism lies to the constitution....Whats your alternative?

You "overthrow" the goverment at the ballot box....your side lost which would include the NY Times,CBS,MTV, Barbra Stresand, Michael Moore.They had all the vehichles to promote and get out their brand of patriotism and lost.

 

[Marco]

Regime changes happen and people lose power.....

But if the people don't get together like our forefathers did and draft a constitution that provides laws for living and controls the government....then all that happens generally is that a different thug takes over....happens in the mob all the time.....

Regime change doesn't necessarily guarantee democracy will take hold....could just be another dictatorship emerge....

 

[PatPatriot]

But if the people don't get together like our forefathers did and draft a constitution that provides laws for living and controls the government....then all that happens generally is that a different thug takes over....happens in the mob all the time.....

Regime change doesn't necessarily guarantee democracy will take hold....could just be another dictatorship emerge....<!-- / message -->

Right on. New assholes new rebellions new patriots new asshole new rebellions etc.

Improve on what you have it will never be perfect.Whats the saying? democracy is a journey not a destination.

 

[D2bets]

No goverment gets overthrown unless their is loyalty or "patriotism" towrd the rebellion and what the rebellion stands for...Or in other words. Whats the alternative?

I know where my patriotism lies to the constitution....Whats your alternative?

You "overthrow" the goverment at the ballot box....your side lost which would include the NY Times,CBS,MTV, Barbra Stresand, Michael Moore.They had all the vehichles to promote and get out their brand of patriotism and lost.

If your patriotism was to the constitution then you'd be appalled by Bush and want him impeached. It's not an eexaggeration to say that he's made a mockery of the constitution. It's been eroding for many years, no doubt, but Bush has taken it to new, previoulsy inconceivable levels.

 

[Illini]

If your patriotism was to the constitution then you'd be appalled by Bush and want him impeached. It's not an eexaggeration to say that he's made a mockery of the constitution. It's been eroding for many years, no doubt, but Bush has taken it to new, previoulsy inconceivable levels.

D2- hey buddy. Please explain what you mean in layman's terms.

 

[archimedes]

Patriot,
What are the alternatives to what? Patriotism?

Fewer wars, smaller and less powerful states, possibly even democracy.:toast:

Marco, you stated:
"if the people don't get together like our forefathers did and draft a constitution that provides laws for living and controls the government....then all that happens generally is that a different thug takes over....happens in the mob all the time....."


The U.S. government has shown that it has the ability to ignore constitutional rights when it so pleases. From John Adams to dishonest Abe to Woodrow to Bush 43. I think it's pretty clear that the constitution doesn't control the government, and never has.

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[PatPatriot]

pa·tri·ot·ism ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (p

tr

-

-t

z

m)
n.

<DL><DD>Love of and devotion to one's country.</DD></DL>

Patriotism, nationalism, loyalty to one's country- whatever you want to call it- is the reason why true democracy doesn't exist, and why what is considered democracy is going to continue to be spread throughout the world.

What I'm saying if your patriotism does not lie with the US Constitution....What is your alternative?

My patriotism lies with the US constitution and the protection of it...you know life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness etc etc.?
These rights under the constitution are in danger and do not exist if we have to dodge jet airliners crashing into buildings and finacial institutions.
The president of the US is sworn to protect and defend the constitution of the US by whatever means necessary...and I for one expect him to do it and support it as did 90 percent of the US congress and senate when they voted for it.

Where does your patriotism lie? Anarchy? OBL?....You might not like the war thats fine you can still have the debate on it.But my guess would be that if you like your life under the US constitution, that I guess, would be where YOUR patriotism lies.

 

[Marco]

"I think it's pretty clear that the constitution doesn't control the government, and never has."

archimedes.....I was assuming that when the constitution was carefully thought out and then introduced that government and its people would actually look at the doctrine and abide by the rules presented and use it as a bedrock for conduct that trumped all other law.....

Given the hasty installment of the Patriot Act and all the conflicts of interest that are represented in regards to the constitution, I seriously doubt anyone is paying attention to the constitution, and therefore you are somewhat correct in your stance....

The constitution doesn't mean much to people who make up the rules as they go.....

 

[docmercer--banned]

I have worn tired of this bullcrap: "how dare Newsweek damage our reputation around the world for running that article .." and when it was confirmed to be 100% accurate by the Pentagon the Bushies disappeared

This war was nothing more than a son trying to get "the man who tried to kill Daddy .." Bush is a flappin idiot and this weak ass "you are a traitor" when someone speaks out against a war that the MAJORITY of Americans realize was a major military blunder is laughable

Bring our brave kids home and screw the PR crap that Hannity, Limbaugh & Coulter spread on a daily basis ...

 

[archimedes]

Patriot,
The alternative is to not be patriotic.

Do you feel a sense of patriotism towards England? Italy? Kazakhstan? If not, why not? Because you were not born in any of those countries?

Patriotism tends to produce conformity in thinking. The state becomes the moral compass for its people. Democracy becomes fascism.

I can understand respecting some of what is contained in the Constitution, but I do not understand a feeling of loyalty towards it.


"The president of the US is sworn to protect and defend the constitution of the US by whatever means necessary...and I for one expect him to do it and support it as did 90 percent of the US congress and senate when they voted for it."

So he swears to defend the constitution, then passes acts that violate it?

Marco,
I agree.

 

[PatPatriot]

Given the hasty installment of the Patriot Act and all the conflicts of interest that are represented in regards to the constitution, I seriously doubt anyone is paying attention to the constitution, and therefore you are somewhat correct in your stance....

The constitution doesn't mean much to people who make up the rules as they go.....<!-- / message -->

You know I never ever hear you guys whine about how Franklin Roosevelt put a 100,000 Japenese living in the US in interment camps.

By the way have you guys ever bitched about your congressmen ever for more than likley voting for the Patriot act?
Also could you guys ever cite me one violation of anybodys rights during the Patriot act...that would a hell of a trick because the ACLU has recoreded 0,none,nada.

Patriot,
The alternative is to not be patriotic.

Do you feel a sense of patriotism towards England? Italy? Kazakhstan? If not, why not? Because you were not born in any of those countries?

Patriotism tends to produce conformity in thinking. The state becomes the moral compass for its people. Democracy becomes fascism.

I can understand respecting some of what is contained in the Constitution, but I do not understand a feeling of loyalty towards it.

So under the soverign country of archemedies,you will not be able to express your patriotism...under this opressive rule isn't that fasicm?

Let me understand something. If your alternative is not to be patriotic,doesn't that by your own definition make you un-patriotic? If somone calls you un-patriotic ,aren't they calling a spade a spade then?Isn't it an accurate description?
And as far as those other countries.I don't live and pay taxes there.

 

[archimedes]

So under the soverign country of archemedies,you will not be able to express your patriotism...under this opressive rule isn't that fasicm?

Let me understand something. If your alternative is not to be patriotic,doesn't that by your own definition make you un-patriotic? If somone calls you un-patriotic ,aren't they calling a spade a spade then?Isn't it an accurate description?
And as far as those other countries.I don't live and pay taxes there.

Where did I say people should not be allowed to express patriotism? In Archimedia, people are free to be patriotic if they wish.

If being un-patriotic is defined as not feeling loyalty to a country for no reason other than happened to be born there, then yes, I am un-patriotic, and don't take offense to being called so.

So you feel a sense of loyalty towards the U.S. because you simply happened to be born there, and you pay taxes? That hardly seems enough to call for loyalty. If you were born in Iraq and paid taxes there, would be feel patriotic towards Iraq? And if you were a patriotic Iraqi, how would you feel about another country invading your country justified through lies(WMDs), overthrowing your government, and then exporting its own form of government to your country?

 

[PatPatriot]

If being un-patriotic is defined as not feeling loyalty to a country for no reason other than happened to be born there, then yes, I am un-patriotic, and don't take offense to being called so.

So you feel a sense of loyalty towards the U.S. because you simply happened to be born there, and you pay taxes? That hardly seems enough to call for loyalty. If you were born in Iraq and paid taxes there, would be feel patriotic towards Iraq? And if you were a patriotic Iraqi, how would you feel about another country invading your country justified through lies(WMDs), overthrowing your government, and then exporting its own form of government to your country?<!-- / message -->

I feel a sense of loyalty to the US because I was born here. I am also loyal to my freinds and family who were born and live here,none of which were ever jailed for expressing their opinions against the goverment.They and I went to church or to worship where ever we pleased without harrasment by protection of the Constitution.We also never starved here and were givin the oppurtunity not the garantee of earning and making a living to the best of our abilities and efforts.I'm free to go and come as I please without fear.Up until 9/11 that was threatned we were attacked 3000 of my fellow country men were killed many of whom felt the same as I do.I have fellow workers who picked through the rubble of 9/11.I have fellow worker whos daughter was killed on 9/11.An attack on them is an attack on me.All of them pay taxes to support a military to defend our way of life and to kill people and break things when our rights are threatned.I demand of my goverment to use the military on behalf of our defense.Pre emptive or otherwise.

If you were born in Iraq and paid taxes there, would be feel patriotic towards Iraq?

No....you don't have the same freedoms there.You didn't have any freedoms there.How could I have loyalty to a govt. that allows you only to watch 1 state run tv station,state run newspaper, where the goverment takes everything you earn and gives only money if that to eat, and if you bitch about it you actually get your tounge cut out..I mean Jesus kid get a clue.

I don't know how the Iraqys feel about democracy.You'll have to ask 1 of the 8 million who walked through death threats and gunfire to vote.

 

[archimedes]

You still haven't given a valid reason for your being patriotic.

Your family and friends live here? If your loved ones moved to Canada, are you saying you would no longer feel loyalty towards them? There are many countries in which you would not be jailed for expressing your opinion towards government. Why aren't you also loyal to them? I can understand anger after 9/11, but were you not loyal to your country prior to 9/11? So that can't be the reason for your patriotism. It may have strengthened it, but it didn't cause it.

It comes down to being loyal to a country simply because you happened to be born there. In my opinion, that doesn't justify feeling loyal.

When you think about all of the evil that the conformity of patriotic thinking has caused(ie Nazi Germany), I feel that world would be a much better place without it, and still don't feel that happening to be born somewhere in a certain area of the world should cause one to feel loyal to the government located there.