...and this Chair was appointed by Bush and is a former Republican governor from NJ. This could get ugly for Dubya. 10-1 Bush does everything humanly possible to avoid giving access to his daily security briefs or any other ifno that will embarrass him. And then when anything does come out, it will be somebody else's fault for not dealing with it. The buck only stops at this President's desk when he thinks there's an accomplishment.
Of course it was 'preventable'.
If Bush had, based on the very non-specific reports of muslim terrorists using planes as weapons, grounded all commercial air traffic in the US until Ashcroft had rounded up and detained all middle eatern/muslim males between ages 15 and 60. Had he done that I'm sure the WTC would still be standing.
Love to have heard what people like you would have said has Bush implemented those measures.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998
If Bush had, based on the very non-specific reports of muslim terrorists using planes as weapons, grounded all commercial air traffic in the US until Ashcroft had rounded up and detained all middle eatern/muslim males between ages 15 and 60. Had he done that I'm sure the WTC would still be standing.
Love to have heard what people like you would have said has Bush implemented those measures.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998
Floyd. your right. can you imagine the wailing and the howling by the left if GW did some sort of preemptive action before 9/11,using pieces of sketchy info put together?? They would be calling him a nazi and he is taking away peoples freedoms blah blah blah except 10 times worse then they do today..
Of course they don't mention Bill Clinton when he refused OBL to be given to him gift wrappped by the Sudanese...And of course they don't mention Klinton cutting the balls off the CIA either.
Of course they don't mention Bill Clinton when he refused OBL to be given to him gift wrappped by the Sudanese...And of course they don't mention Klinton cutting the balls off the CIA either.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli:
Of course it was 'preventable'.
If Bush had, based on the very non-specific reports of muslim terrorists using planes as weapons, grounded all commercial air traffic in the US until Ashcroft had rounded up and detained all middle eatern/muslim males between ages 15 and 60. Had he done that I'm sure the WTC would still be standing.
Love to have heard what people like you would have said has Bush implemented those measures.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kean says "As you read the report, you're going to have a pretty clear idea of what wasn't done and what should have been done...this was not something that had to happen". Somehow I don't think he's going to say that your suggestion was needed or should have been done. Way to use hyperbole though, good excuse.
I'll just be interested to see what they have to say and I'll withhold full judgment until then. Hopefully they will be allowed to continue to do their job without obstruction or stonewalling from the Admin.
How Condi Rice could have said that it could not have been predicted that they would use a hijacked airplane as a missile is beyond me given that they had FBI records dating back 10 years saying it was a possibility and when an agent in 2001 warned specifically about it. How is that not predictable? As national security adviser, from what I've seen I think Rice should be fired (not fried by the way, though I do enjoy fried rice).
Of course it was 'preventable'.
If Bush had, based on the very non-specific reports of muslim terrorists using planes as weapons, grounded all commercial air traffic in the US until Ashcroft had rounded up and detained all middle eatern/muslim males between ages 15 and 60. Had he done that I'm sure the WTC would still be standing.
Love to have heard what people like you would have said has Bush implemented those measures.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kean says "As you read the report, you're going to have a pretty clear idea of what wasn't done and what should have been done...this was not something that had to happen". Somehow I don't think he's going to say that your suggestion was needed or should have been done. Way to use hyperbole though, good excuse.
I'll just be interested to see what they have to say and I'll withhold full judgment until then. Hopefully they will be allowed to continue to do their job without obstruction or stonewalling from the Admin.
How Condi Rice could have said that it could not have been predicted that they would use a hijacked airplane as a missile is beyond me given that they had FBI records dating back 10 years saying it was a possibility and when an agent in 2001 warned specifically about it. How is that not predictable? As national security adviser, from what I've seen I think Rice should be fired (not fried by the way, though I do enjoy fried rice).
Floyd and Patriot, so I take it you think Kean is being political here or something? You think he's going to suggest that preventive action like Floyd is uggesting is what was needed. If so, I think you're going to be very surprised when the full story comes out. Of course even then you'll find some excuse and somehow manage to blame everybody but your lap dog Dubya.
d2 look at the measures taken AFTER 9/11...all the complaining and whining....can you imagine the volume of complaing BEFORE 9/11??
Can you see the admin. saying "...after we connected the dots.." Then started making people wait 2 hours at airports and stuff....The left would be howling "there is no concrete proof of this!!!...Or thier favorite line "Wheres the smoking gun????
Can you see the admin. saying "...after we connected the dots.." Then started making people wait 2 hours at airports and stuff....The left would be howling "there is no concrete proof of this!!!...Or thier favorite line "Wheres the smoking gun????
Not exactly sure how it's relevant but I've been on flights several times this year and it takes no longer at all than it did pre 9/11 -- not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing.
Again, let's see what the Commission has to say about what could have been done to prevent 9/11. I'm guessing that it won't be as far-fetched as you seem to think.
Again, let's see what the Commission has to say about what could have been done to prevent 9/11. I'm guessing that it won't be as far-fetched as you seem to think.
Regardless of this report's findings, I'd guess that the US sealed its fate regarding 9/11 (or another attack, had that one been circumvented) with years of unwelcome foreign policy in the middle east. Until the US comes to understand that terrorism won't be prevented with bandaid solutions such as force and economic sanctions, this kind of thing will continue, and likely worsen.
Invading Iraq, as part of the "war on terror" will ultimately have the opposite effect of its intention: it has likely served to save Al Quada (and others) millions in marketing and recruitment expenses. If a Canadian citizen like myself, from a very peacable country, can regard the current US administration with such contempt, imagine how Islamic fundamentalists are responding!
Trying to hone in on Bush's apathy regarding terrorism in the days preceding the WTC attack, is highly negligible. The real problem lays much deeper, and goes back much further, than even Bush can take credit for.
Invading Iraq, as part of the "war on terror" will ultimately have the opposite effect of its intention: it has likely served to save Al Quada (and others) millions in marketing and recruitment expenses. If a Canadian citizen like myself, from a very peacable country, can regard the current US administration with such contempt, imagine how Islamic fundamentalists are responding!
Trying to hone in on Bush's apathy regarding terrorism in the days preceding the WTC attack, is highly negligible. The real problem lays much deeper, and goes back much further, than even Bush can take credit for.
It's kind of funny how they quote one of the widows of the 9/11 attack as some sort of intelligence expert. It's always easy to Monday morning quarterback. How about the attack on the USS Cole? How about the first bombing in New YorK? You libs will try anything. And by the way Condy Rice is probably one of the sharpest people around. I'm sure there are threat assessments and different scenarios every day. YOu've got to prioritize things. Hell they could set off a bomb in a shopping mall and kill a sh_tload of people. Should we install bomb sniffing dogs in every mall in the country?
I'm amazed there hasn't been an attack on US soil since 9/11. We must be doing something right.
[This message was edited by SENDITIN on December 18, 2003 at 01:06 PM.]
I'm amazed there hasn't been an attack on US soil since 9/11. We must be doing something right.
[This message was edited by SENDITIN on December 18, 2003 at 01:06 PM.]
I thought that internal flight security had been suspect for years, there was a report going back to the 90's that highlighted this weakness, and no-one did diddly about it(not just buckeroo Bush, but Clintoon too).
The report also concluded that International flight security (in the US) was of an acceptable standard at that time.
So it was preventable, but no one with the authority acted on this Info/thought it was important enough.
The report also concluded that International flight security (in the US) was of an acceptable standard at that time.
So it was preventable, but no one with the authority acted on this Info/thought it was important enough.
Xpanda,
I'll bet your disdain for the Bush administration isn't the majority opinion in Canada. And it certainly is NOT the majority opinion in the US, though the major media which is left wing makes the most noise about it.
I disagree with your analysis of Iraq. I say you plant yourself right in the middle of the bad neighborhood as a warning to others. What is the likelihood of Iran acting worse when we are right on their doorstep? Same holds true for Syria. And remember there have been ZERO attacks on the US soil since 9/11...and our policy has been completely OFFENSIVE since then and more antagonistic in your eyes.
Now I do agree that the Israel/Palestinian situation is a solid contributor to some of the hatred toward us...but I beleive we are closer to solving that situation WITHOUT Sadaam then we would be WITH him in power.
I'll bet your disdain for the Bush administration isn't the majority opinion in Canada. And it certainly is NOT the majority opinion in the US, though the major media which is left wing makes the most noise about it.
I disagree with your analysis of Iraq. I say you plant yourself right in the middle of the bad neighborhood as a warning to others. What is the likelihood of Iran acting worse when we are right on their doorstep? Same holds true for Syria. And remember there have been ZERO attacks on the US soil since 9/11...and our policy has been completely OFFENSIVE since then and more antagonistic in your eyes.
Now I do agree that the Israel/Palestinian situation is a solid contributor to some of the hatred toward us...but I beleive we are closer to solving that situation WITHOUT Sadaam then we would be WITH him in power.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'll bet your disdain for the Bush administration isn't the majority opinion in Canada <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Decide for yourselves.
CBC Polls
----------------
http://www.queensu.ca/cora/polls/2003/March9-CBC-US_Interest_in_Iraq.pdf
Perceived American Motives for War in Iraq:
39% To ensure the United States’strategic oil interests in the Middle East are protected
30% To protect the security of Americans from threats of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction
18% To remove Saddam Hussein and install a democratic regime in Iraq
10% To ensure the political popularity of the Bush administration for the next election
4% Don't Know/No Response
http://www.queensu.ca/cora/polls/2003/April13-CBC-War_in_Iraq.pdf
“Do you support or oppose the decision by President
Bush to take military action against Iraq?”
21% Strongly support
23% Somewhat support
3% Neither
20% Somewhat oppose
32% Strongly oppose
2% DK/NR
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/07/poll_sat021207
SUPPORT FOR WAR BY REGION
Quebec 23%
B.C. 34%
Prairies 41%
Atlantic 44%
Ontario 48%
Alberta 57%
National 40%
Who's the greatest threat?
Saddam 56%
Bush 38%
Decide for yourselves.
CBC Polls
----------------
http://www.queensu.ca/cora/polls/2003/March9-CBC-US_Interest_in_Iraq.pdf
Perceived American Motives for War in Iraq:
39% To ensure the United States’strategic oil interests in the Middle East are protected
30% To protect the security of Americans from threats of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction
18% To remove Saddam Hussein and install a democratic regime in Iraq
10% To ensure the political popularity of the Bush administration for the next election
4% Don't Know/No Response
http://www.queensu.ca/cora/polls/2003/April13-CBC-War_in_Iraq.pdf
“Do you support or oppose the decision by President
Bush to take military action against Iraq?”
21% Strongly support
23% Somewhat support
3% Neither
20% Somewhat oppose
32% Strongly oppose
2% DK/NR
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/07/poll_sat021207
SUPPORT FOR WAR BY REGION
Quebec 23%
B.C. 34%
Prairies 41%
Atlantic 44%
Ontario 48%
Alberta 57%
National 40%
Who's the greatest threat?
Saddam 56%
Bush 38%
posted by xpanda:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Regardless of this report's findings, I'd guess that the US sealed its fate regarding 9/11 (or another attack, had that one been circumvented) with years of unwelcome foreign policy in the middle east. Until the US comes to understand that terrorism won't be prevented with bandaid solutions such as force and economic sanctions, this kind of thing will continue, and likely worsen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that you are spot on here.
I also think that despite some of the alleged "smoking guns" the idea that 9/11 could have been somehow specifically prophesied is ludicrous. Prior to 9/11, it was hardly some sort of revolutionary concept to assert that radical Muslim extremists would at some point attempt to pull off a major terror attack on American soil, and that it might work -- but there is an enormous difference betwwen people in the know believing it will one day happen, and those same people having clairvoyance enough to nail down a specific event as imminent.
The true causes, the root of the problem which leads to terrorism against America in the first place, lie in policies which instill resentment against the U.S. in the Middle East -- policies which go back decades in American history, and are not something for which President Bush or President Clinton bear sole responsibility by any stretch of the imagination.
Additionally, resentment of the U.S. purchases enormous political capital for the assorted mullahs, ayatollahs and other crazies who may not have a problem with the U.S. at all, but who dearly love being in power over their people -- no different in theory or practice than Hitler's power grab on a wave of invented anti-Semitism among the poor and middle-class of pre-WWII Germany.
These things are trends, not schedules. There were many things specific to 9/11 which might have been done differently and somehow effected the outcome, such as the lackluster manner in which air support was dispatched. But this would not have prevented the attacks themselves, and in all likelihood would not have made a difference to the thousands of people who died at the WTC that day.
Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Regardless of this report's findings, I'd guess that the US sealed its fate regarding 9/11 (or another attack, had that one been circumvented) with years of unwelcome foreign policy in the middle east. Until the US comes to understand that terrorism won't be prevented with bandaid solutions such as force and economic sanctions, this kind of thing will continue, and likely worsen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that you are spot on here.
I also think that despite some of the alleged "smoking guns" the idea that 9/11 could have been somehow specifically prophesied is ludicrous. Prior to 9/11, it was hardly some sort of revolutionary concept to assert that radical Muslim extremists would at some point attempt to pull off a major terror attack on American soil, and that it might work -- but there is an enormous difference betwwen people in the know believing it will one day happen, and those same people having clairvoyance enough to nail down a specific event as imminent.
The true causes, the root of the problem which leads to terrorism against America in the first place, lie in policies which instill resentment against the U.S. in the Middle East -- policies which go back decades in American history, and are not something for which President Bush or President Clinton bear sole responsibility by any stretch of the imagination.
Additionally, resentment of the U.S. purchases enormous political capital for the assorted mullahs, ayatollahs and other crazies who may not have a problem with the U.S. at all, but who dearly love being in power over their people -- no different in theory or practice than Hitler's power grab on a wave of invented anti-Semitism among the poor and middle-class of pre-WWII Germany.
These things are trends, not schedules. There were many things specific to 9/11 which might have been done differently and somehow effected the outcome, such as the lackluster manner in which air support was dispatched. But this would not have prevented the attacks themselves, and in all likelihood would not have made a difference to the thousands of people who died at the WTC that day.
Phaedrus
From "What the World Thinks of America," a survey conducted by 10 television networks worldwide on the thoughts and attitudes of American culture, economics, politics, military, etc. The survey was conducted between May 16 and June 1, 2003 and has a standard deviation of plus or minus 3.1 percent. Please note that these findings (and I'm only submitting the ones that are right on point) are prior to Bush's decision to keep Canada out of contract bids. Public opinion, in my small circle at least, has grown more resentful of Bush since that time.
Canada's Opinion:
"Thinking specifically about President Bush of America, would you say your attitude towards [him] is ...
NET favourable - 48
very - 14
fairly - 34
NET unfavourable - 48
very - 23
fairly - 25
Don't know or indifferent - 4%
"America now feels it is the only superpower in the world and they can do what they like."
NET agree - 64
strongly - 48
slightly - 16
NET disagree - 34
strongly - 23
slightly - 11
"George W. Bush has said that "America has, and intends to keep, military strengths beyond challenge." Does America's superior military power make the world a safer place, a more dangerous place, or does it make no difference?
Safer - 41%
More Dangerous - 37%
No difference - 19%
"Do you think that America was right or wrong to invade Iraq?"
Right 44%
Wrong 47%
Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/america/index.html
Canada's Opinion:
"Thinking specifically about President Bush of America, would you say your attitude towards [him] is ...
NET favourable - 48
very - 14
fairly - 34
NET unfavourable - 48
very - 23
fairly - 25
Don't know or indifferent - 4%
"America now feels it is the only superpower in the world and they can do what they like."
NET agree - 64
strongly - 48
slightly - 16
NET disagree - 34
strongly - 23
slightly - 11
"George W. Bush has said that "America has, and intends to keep, military strengths beyond challenge." Does America's superior military power make the world a safer place, a more dangerous place, or does it make no difference?
Safer - 41%
More Dangerous - 37%
No difference - 19%
"Do you think that America was right or wrong to invade Iraq?"
Right 44%
Wrong 47%
Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/america/index.html
Xpanda,
Interesting data...time to change your circle of friends...stop hanging around Lander
Better get used to GWB for a while...the Dems have ZERO chance of winning with Doctor No or any of the other jokers. Haven't read all that much on this forum from you, but could you briefly elaborate on your personal dislike for Bush (excluding the war)?
Interesting data...time to change your circle of friends...stop hanging around Lander
Better get used to GWB for a while...the Dems have ZERO chance of winning with Doctor No or any of the other jokers. Haven't read all that much on this forum from you, but could you briefly elaborate on your personal dislike for Bush (excluding the war)?
