Almost everything people say about BB that is positive I agree with (besides just being able to plug anyone in anyone to do some facsimile version of what Brady has done, I think that's absurd), but I just think over time we've clearly seen coaches don't have as much impact without these guys. Whereas you give an elite QB like Rodgers an idiot for a coach and he still goes 11-5.
That 58-68 record is a tad misleading since the majority of those games would have featured whatever backup, not the week-in-week-out starter, let alone an elite one like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Rothlisberger etc.
How many SBs does Peyton Manning win with BB as his coach? There's something to ponder in all those "Brady vs Manning" debates. I have no way of proving it but I'm betting Manning would have won as many as Brady.
How many SBs does Peyton Manning win with BB as his coach? There's something to ponder in all those "Brady vs Manning" debates. I have no way of proving it but I'm betting Manning would have won as many as Brady.
Btw, I think Mahomes is superior to 'prime' Brady in just about every category, but I don't think he'll win 6 superbowls under Andy Reid.
Belichick does need another elite QB to win again, but that wasn't the original question.
How many Superbowls does Tom Brady win with Jason Garrett as his coach?
Belichick does need another elite QB to win again, but that wasn't the original question.
How many Superbowls does Tom Brady win with Jason Garrett as his coach?
Tom Brady at 43 years old has a very good chance to win more playoff games this year than BB has in 8 years without him. Because the number is 1 (coincidentally, vs the Patriots and Bledsoe in 1994) Not much of a bar to clear.
That's kinda the point. Side by side on their own, the results wouldn't be close.
And the great majority of that 58-69 record is not with backups.....No one is telling their grandkids about Testaverde, Bledsoe but they were solid starters. Cam been a starter in the league his entire career (if he sucks, well who made the judgement that he should start this year?)
Is 58-69 not indicative of how BB would do over most 130 game samples with no Brady? Sure, but Brady is probably never having that record over a 130 game sample unless you, me and 8 other guys in this thread are sharing the field with him.
I understand your point, but not a fair comparison. The Pats sucked last season WITH Brady in decline, and likely would have missed the playoffs with him as their QB this year. One of the reasons they let him go.
BB's 58-69 record looks much different with any random elite QB, even a Phillip Rivers would put BB's non-Brady record well over .500.
Is Cam Newton still a starter, let alone an elite one? The entire league passed him over, so BB signed him for less guaranteed money than Nathan Peterman. More of a typical BB bargain bin reclamation project, imo. I would have preferred to see a full rebuild with a shot at Trevor Lawrence.
I am not disputing the fact BB needs an elite QB to win, anymore than I would argue Mike Vrabel needs an elite QB to win with his well-rounded Titans team which is going nowhere fast with Tannehill.
I am making the case Belichick was far more valuable to Brady than the other way around. Impossible to prove one way or the other, but I submit to you that Brady doesn't even win half as many Superbowls with an avg coach, whereas I would not bet against Belichick having 5-6 rings with an elite starter like Aaron Rodgers (1) Peyton Manning (2) during Brady's tenure. Belichick's teams were well oiled machines during the Brady era, especially during the playoffs.
PS - Tompa Bay is not winning anything with Bruce Arians.
They went 12-4 last year as ugly as it was to watch at times, but yes, that is a bad year with Tom Brady. Why did they have a bad year by their standards? One of the main reasons is BB hasn't drafted particularly well the last 6-7 years. Took Nkeal Harry over AJ Brown and DK Metcalf. Took Sony Michel 1st rd. Long list of draft misses. The cupboard was bare, Brady had no choice but to dip. BB was able to get rid of guys earlier rather than wait for the decline, well Brady flipped the script and did that to them. BB hasn't drafted a non-OL that you would call "elite" probably since 2012.
Their best receiver was a 34 year old slot receiver that hasn't been able to stay healthy for years now and body was clearly breaking dwn as well as a 1st rd pick WR (in a loaded WR draft) that looks like a bust. No pass catching tight end on the roster. Even if Cam isn't the answer, deck was stacked against him. Is he past his prime? Sure, but doesn't excuse getting run up and down the field by equally injury ravaged teams like SF, Buffalo and Denver if we're talking about legends of the highest pedigree here. There is going to be some nitpicking.
How is the debate Brady w/ avg coach vs BB w/ elite QB? So Brady gets Jason Garrett and Belichick gets Aaron Rodgers? Umm, yeah I guess that would be favorable to BB.
How about Brady + Mike Zimmer vs BB + Matt Stafford or Jared Goff...That's a boat race to me. And even a Goff/Stafford isn't always as easy to find as it seems, ask the other teams in the AFC East. It is remarkable how long any of them went without a solid QB during the NE run.
Would BB crush with another legend QB like Peyton Manning? Yeah, sure. Because that guy would also be more important than him just like Brady was.
As far as Tampa chances this year go.... They're top 5 in SB futures right now and top 2 in the NFC. The Tom in Tompa must be doing something right for a team that hasn't won a playoff game since the night Jimmy Kimmel live made its debut (2003)
I guess we'll see when NE is top 2 in their conf and top 5 in SB futures again. Hopefully sooner than later but it may not be the quickest road back because of the challenges I've highlighted.
Their best receiver was a 34 year old slot receiver that hasn't been able to stay healthy for years now and body was clearly breaking dwn as well as a 1st rd pick WR (in a loaded WR draft) that looks like a bust. No pass catching tight end on the roster. Even if Cam isn't the answer, deck was stacked against him. Is he past his prime? Sure, but doesn't excuse getting run up and down the field by equally injury ravaged teams like SF, Buffalo and Denver if we're talking about legends of the highest pedigree here. There is going to be some nitpicking.
How is the debate Brady w/ avg coach vs BB w/ elite QB? So Brady gets Jason Garrett and Belichick gets Aaron Rodgers? Umm, yeah I guess that would be favorable to BB.
How about Brady + Mike Zimmer vs BB + Matt Stafford or Jared Goff...That's a boat race to me. And even a Goff/Stafford isn't always as easy to find as it seems, ask the other teams in the AFC East. It is remarkable how long any of them went without a solid QB during the NE run.
Would BB crush with another legend QB like Peyton Manning? Yeah, sure. Because that guy would also be more important than him just like Brady was.
As far as Tampa chances this year go.... They're top 5 in SB futures right now and top 2 in the NFC. The Tom in Tompa must be doing something right for a team that hasn't won a playoff game since the night Jimmy Kimmel live made its debut (2003)
I guess we'll see when NE is top 2 in their conf and top 5 in SB futures again. Hopefully sooner than later but it may not be the quickest road back because of the challenges I've highlighted.
In fairness a whole bunch of teams passed on Metcalf and a whole bunch of receivers were drafted ahead of him .
He was pretty injury riddled during his college career
If the pats would have drafted him in the 1st round it would have been considered a reach at the time .
He was pretty injury riddled during his college career
If the pats would have drafted him in the 1st round it would have been considered a reach at the time .
After long deliberation I believe I’m changing my stance slightly .
Yes I think it was a perfect marriage between 2 elites but if I had to pick the most important one I would pick Brady .
That’s not to take anything away from belichick
Yes I think it was a perfect marriage between 2 elites but if I had to pick the most important one I would pick Brady .
That’s not to take anything away from belichick
One season does not close the books
Brady went to a stacked team
Belichick coached with 8 opt outs (nobody else has > 3) and serious salary cap issues which handicapped him this year and that all goes away in 2021. No opt outs, and they're at the top of the league with respect to cap space next year
Brady went to a stacked team
Belichick coached with 8 opt outs (nobody else has > 3) and serious salary cap issues which handicapped him this year and that all goes away in 2021. No opt outs, and they're at the top of the league with respect to cap space next year
You guys who use Cleveland as a measurement of Billy Bs greatness are missing something. It's called a learning curve.
He undoubtedly learned a lot through that experience. He then became an assistant head coach and defensive coach for the next four years before again stepping into the head coaching position with New England.
Some people learn and grow through experience. Successful people sure do.
Toss that Cleveland part of his resume and focus on the last twenty years.
In those twenty years he brought his team to 13 Championship games in those 20 years. This all in the free agency era. Nobody and I mean nobody will ever match that thorough, extended dominance. Not in the NFL they won't.
Could he have done it with other QBs? Yea, I think so if he had a good one. Don't forget who coached that out of shape 6th round pick to his greatness.
He undoubtedly learned a lot through that experience. He then became an assistant head coach and defensive coach for the next four years before again stepping into the head coaching position with New England.
Some people learn and grow through experience. Successful people sure do.
Toss that Cleveland part of his resume and focus on the last twenty years.
In those twenty years he brought his team to 13 Championship games in those 20 years. This all in the free agency era. Nobody and I mean nobody will ever match that thorough, extended dominance. Not in the NFL they won't.
Could he have done it with other QBs? Yea, I think so if he had a good one. Don't forget who coached that out of shape 6th round pick to his greatness.
They went to the SB in '95. Teams disintegrate fast in the free agency era. I agree that there was an excellent core of three young defensive players that he inherited in Bruschi, McGinnest, and Milloy. Ted Johnson? meh. Bellicheck moulded them and the team around them. You do remember that the Pats were 14 point underdogs in the 2001 Super Bowl. Bellicheck coached this team up. And he's coached every team up since. Right through the free agency, salary cap era.
