Brady or Belichick

[CHOPTALK]

Saying Messier was better then Gretzky would almost be the equivalent of saying Scotty Pippen was better then Jordan.

That’s about as full on retard of a comment as you will ever read. Lol

Keep it coming sherif joe .

This is good shit

 

[SheriffJoe]

I said I would take Messier over Gretzky in a heartbeat, and I can back it up with facts.

Gretzky's numbers are grossly inflated since those dynasty Oilers, which Messier was a part of, were blowing out everyone 8-2 and 10-4 every night - typical 1980s firewagon hockey.

Just to give some context... with the Oilers, Gretzky averaged 185pts a season over 9 seasons. Sounds impressive until you see his Kings output was a more modest 114 pts avg over 8 seasons. By the time he was traded to St Louis, his point production had dipped to under 80 pts that year. Playoffs were similar, hence the missing hardware for the "Great One".

Don't get me wrong, a 100pt center in the NHL is solid, but hardly generational IF we measure Gretzky's output outside the dynasty Oilers, which included 6 HOFers - SIX HALL OF FAMERS.

Is that 'fair'? I dunno...two years after Gretzky was traded to LA, Messier won another cup in Edmonton. Then a few years after that, he 'warriored' the NYR to another title after a 54 year drought. Messier was a horse - the prototypical captain you'd want on your team if you needed a clutch goal or guaranteed victory.

I do agree with Ricboff, but not for all those injuries Mario would be the considered the GOAT, and it frankly wouldn't be close.

Sorry fellas, sports is so much more than "stats" and "records".... you gotta watch the games.

 

[Ricboff]

I said I would take Messier over Gretzky in a heartbeat, and I can back it up with facts.

Gretzky's numbers are grossly inflated since those dynasty Oilers, which Messier was a part of, were blowing out everyone 8-2 and 10-4 every night - typical 1980s firewagon hockey.

Just to give some context... with the Oilers, Gretzky averaged 185pts a season over 9 seasons. Sounds impressive until you see his Kings output was a more modest 114 pts avg over 8 seasons. By the time he was traded to St Louis, his point production had dipped to under 80 pts that year. Playoffs were similar, hence the missing hardware for the "Great One".

Don't get me wrong, a 100pt center in the NHL is solid, but hardly generational IF we measure Gretzky's output outside the dynasty Oilers, which included 6 HOFers - SIX HALL OF FAMERS.

Is that 'fair'? I dunno...two years after Gretzky was traded to LA, Messier won another cup in Edmonton. Then a few years after that, he 'warriored' the NYR to another title after a 54 year drought. Messier was a horse - the prototypical captain you'd want on your team if you needed a clutch goal or guaranteed victory.

I do agree with Ricboff, but not for all those injuries Mario would be the considered the GOAT, and it frankly wouldn't be close.

Sorry fellas, sports is so much more than "stats" and "records".... you gotta watch the games.

watch the games? you are the only guy watching games? you tried to discredit Gretz's impact in the turnaround of the LA Kings by saying he played with stars Robitaille and Blake. lol. All the while the Kings were a non-playoff team before his arrival. Pure crazy talk- They reached the Cup final, and because they didnt win, it's a black eye in your book. Cool .he won a league MVP as a King , btw. Add more stupid talk about him playing with hall of famers or else production numbers would be lower, lol .

i Guess Messier didnt have any help in New York? Hall of Famers B Leetch, K Lowe at the back. not bad, eh? Ricter between the pipes. Upfront , hey look another Hall of Famer in G Anderson! Add Graves, Zubov, Kovalev , Larmer, Tikkanen, Olczyk, Karpovtsev . BTW how the fuck did Lowe make the Hall of Fame?


Also, come internationally, no comparison in production . Mark didnt even make the Canadian Olympic 1998 team, lol.

Messier was solid , he's not on the same level as Wayne, Mario , or Sid. I'd have him on my all-time Team Canada lineup tho. Character guy. Wayne 1st line center, mario on the wing. Sid second line center...Connor 3rd line center, Sakic 4th line center, Mark needs to play wing --id put him 4th line with Sakic

 

[SheriffJoe]

Excellent point about the Kings being a non-playoff team. Gretzky missed them in 3/8 seasons with the Kings.

Messier never missed the playoffs after the Gretzky trade - 8 straight seasons until he signed with Vancouver. Including his 5th cup in Edmonton, then another with a whole different team NY.

Playoff appearances for Messier: 117. Gretzky: 88. Their average playoff point totals are comparable: 18 for Gretzky; 17 for Messier.

Gretzky won 3 gold medals and one silver for his country. Same as Messier.

1998 Olympics???? Are you serious??? Both players had been in the league over 20 years at that point and Canada didn't even medal! Probably should have opted for Messier over Gretzky. LOL

 

[Ricboff]

u trolling Joe?

'Playoff appearances for Messier: 117. Gretzky: 88. Their average playoff point totals are comparable: 18 for Gretzky; 17 for Messier.

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

u were saying? Wayne played fewer games and had nearly 100 pts more?

if you want to use the metrics who won more Cups or who made more playoff appearances as your main decision factor for whom you'd take to start a team, then sure take Mess. You could do a lot worse and take Sather, lol . As a heads up J Lemaire won 8 Cups--2 more than Mess , should we take him over Mess to start a team? Anyway, Top picks to start a team - Gretz, Mario , Orr . Mark isnt even in the discussion, Sid, Connor before Mark. Mark is with Sakic, Yzerman , etc group .

yes i am serious about the Olympics, Mark didn't make the team, sorry. The brain trust didn't want him. In addition he doesn't play center on the top 3 lines of an all-time Canada Team ( Gretz, Sid, Connor) ,he'd battle for 4th line C or a wing position, unlike Wayne he aint a lock to make the team--that in itself speaks volumes . Shits and giggles : Mark did make the 87 Canada Cup-- had 6 pts, Gretz led the tournament with 21 .Keep in mind Mess was 1st line pp, lol

lets not even go into NHL records or individual awards , haha

 

[phdinsports]

Actually, I never said I'd take Sather over Gretzky, YOU made that stupid comparison since your entire frame of reference is hockey. Why even bother commenting in this football thread since you know nothing about the subject? Mocking you for worshiping Gretzky is FUN, given the fact he won his cups with literally a team full of all-stars and HOFs. But don't let the inconvenient facts get in your way. Gretzky never won anything outside of that dynasty, not even a sniff in the finals, well, except one year against a less talented Habs...and Gretzky had all-stars like Robitaille and Rob Blake in LA, and Brett Hull and Chris Pronger in St. Louis. Interesting Pronger won his cup with Ryan Getzlaf as his center who is more of a Messier 'type' power forward, while Blake won with Sakic.

I'd say stick to hockey, but poor diva house league coach just doesn't have a clue.

Gretzky only played 18 games in STL!! Pronger was only 21 at the time not yet developed into the force he would become. It was his first year with Keenan who, insisted he improve his conditioning and cut back on the drinking. He also had Niedermayer when he won the cup. Blake had Sakic, Forsberg, and Roy.

Please don't refer to that dirty cheap shot artist Messier as a power forward! Had he been European he would have been labelled such. That pussy used his stick as a bat after he realized he was going against the big Bird!! He can't hold Neely's jockstrap when it comes to power forwards! I'm not denying that he was a great player, but dirty not tough. Huge difference only because of his birth country.

Some good hockey talk in the wrong thread, but you guys are forgetting the real GOAT Bobby Orr!

 

[SheriffJoe]

No doubt Bobby Orr was the greatest (or one of the greatest) but since his career was cut short by injuries we'll never know.

All the Gretzky numbers I posted were post-Oilers so people can clearly see the bulk of his 'records' were amassed in Edmonton during the era of fire wagon hockey - when goalies didn't look like Transformers covering most of the net. Pick a stat, Gretzky's numbers outside of that Edmonton dynasty bubble are quite ordinary.

I'd take Messier over Gretzky, but Scott Stevens is my all time favorite player.

 

[Ricboff]

Gretzky only played 18 games in STL!! Pronger was only 21 at the time not yet developed into the force he would become. It was his first year with Keenan who, insisted he improve his conditioning and cut back on the drinking. He also had Niedermayer when he won the cup. Blake had Sakic, Forsberg, and Roy.

Please don't refer to that dirty cheap shot artist Messier as a power forward! Had he been European he would have been labelled such. That pussy used his stick as a bat after he realized he was going against the big Bird!! He can't hold Neely's jockstrap when it comes to power forwards! I'm not denying that he was a great player, but dirty not tough. Huge difference only because of his birth country.

Some good hockey talk in the wrong thread, but you guys are forgetting the real GOAT Bobby Orr!

Neely was a beast

i didnt see Orr, but included his name in the 3 elite names to start a team: Gretz, Mario, Orr. All three could take over a game. Dont think i'll see the day when another Orr-like defensemen arrives. But never say never, I said the same thing about the forward position and then Connor arrived, haha

what's happening to your Habs bro, lol. To think if the Isles won Game #7 vs TB they actually could have hoisted Lord Stanley, then go 6-20 the next yr , good grief Leafs need to get Chiarot, Habs to blow it up, try to get Shane Wright. That Leaf dee can be frightening , smurf Sandin is unwatchable at times. No growth in Dermott. Holl has regressed , Lillgren is a nope.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Ric, what you think of this take that Gretzky's stats were inflated on Edmonton?

You only get a finite number of years in your 20's and in the league, so hard to say what he would've done elsewhere but he still was a perennial top points guy on the Kings.

He was the Oilers consensus best player and they won 4x, can't really do anything other than that but that is why a lot of this is subjective. Not like you can run a simulation multiple ways.

 

[phdinsports]

No doubt Bobby Orr was the greatest (or one of the greatest) but since his career was cut short by injuries we'll never know.

All the Gretzky numbers I posted were post-Oilers so people can clearly see the bulk of his 'records' were amassed in Edmonton during the era of fire wagon hockey - when goalies didn't look like Transformers covering most of the net. Pick a stat, Gretzky's numbers outside of that Edmonton dynasty bubble are quite ordinary.

I'd take Messier over Gretzky, but Scott Stevens is my all time favorite player.

No doubt Bobby Orr was the greatest (or one of the greatest) but since his career was cut short by injuries we'll never know.

All the Gretzky numbers I posted were post-Oilers so people can clearly see the bulk of his 'records' were amassed in Edmonton during the era of fire wagon hockey - when goalies didn't look like Transformers covering most of the net. Pick a stat, Gretzky's numbers outside of that Edmonton dynasty bubble are quite ordinary.

I'd take Messier over Gretzky, but Scott Stevens is my all time favorite player.

Nothing ordinary about Gretzky's numbers in LA. He led the league in scoring twice in his first three seasons in LA. His 168 points was surpassed only one time in NHL history by Lemieux! He started to slow down a little after his back/disk injury. He's the only player to crack the top 50 point totals all-time older than 31. Very few players putting up high totals over 31. Ordinary when compared to Gretzky in his prime, extra ordinary when compared to everyone else!

 

[phdinsports]

Neely was a beast

i didnt see Orr, but included his name in the 3 elite names to start a team: Gretz, Mario, Orr. All three could take over a game. Dont think i'll see the day when another Orr-like defensemen arrives. But never say never, I said the same thing about the forward position and then Connor arrived, haha

what's happening to your Habs bro, lol. To think if the Isles won Game #7 vs TB they actually could have hoisted Lord Stanley, then go 6-20 the next yr , good grief Leafs need to get Chiarot, Habs to blow it up, try to get Shane Wright. That Leaf dee can be frightening , smurf Sandin is unwatchable at times. No growth in Dermott. Holl has regressed , Lillgren is a nope.

Fuck! Don't remind me! They would have beaten the Islanders, Price the best goalie not named Vasilevskiy. Where's Volek when you need him!! DAMMIT! Oh you missed Trottier and Clarke for your starting centres. You need two way centres on team Canada.

 

[Michelangelo]

I don't think either Brady or Belichick ever skated.

///

Different lens.

I'd be curious what the Miami and Buffalo guys think. You guys are in the AFC East with the Pats. Lets go back a couple of years. If you could have had either Brady or Belli moved off the Pats, which one would you choose?

 

[SheriffJoe]

No love for Jets fans?

 

[Ricboff]

Ric, what you think of this take that Gretzky's stats were inflated on Edmonton?

You only get a finite number of years in your 20's and in the league, so hard to say what he would've done elsewhere but he still was a perennial top points guy on the Kings.

He was the Oilers consensus best player and they won 4x, can't really do anything other than that but that is why a lot of this is subjective. Not like you can run a simulation multiple ways.

inflated? what does that even mean? just crazy talk man, i agree with your response.Is he suppose to be apologetic for re-writing the NHL record book? Gets to a point the dude is either trolling or flat-out stupid. and phdiinsports had a great post at #330. To add Bernie Nichols was a bona fide 30-45 goal scorer for the Kings- Wayne's first season in LA? , Bernie scored 70 goals becoming only the eighth player in NHL history to hit that total in a season. You think he was happy Gretz arrived? If someone wants to go after Mario they can with similar dumbness -why did he only win 2 Cups? Was his numbers inflated cause he played with Hall of Famers Jagr , Murphy , Francis ,

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

jagr and francis are top 5 NHL point leaders of all-time.

anyway, let me ask you this . When did coaches in the NFL become more important than a star QB? or is this an isolated thing. There was never a debate if Walsh was more important than Montana. The question was never even asked, no? I dont get this, different for sure. Beli must be God-like in the New England area?

 

[PatsFan1283]

anyway, let me ask you this . When did coaches in the NFL become more important than a star QB? or is this an isolated thing. There was never a debate if Walsh was more important than Montana. The question was never even asked, no? I dont get this, different for sure. Beli must be God-like in the New England area?

Largely isolated, the other top QB's don't think anyone would take their coaches over them (obviously there are exceptions, you can find atleast 1 person on a side of any subjective opinion really)

Walsh/Montana is the closest since Young came along right after Montana and had a lot of success in that system. But it didn't really influence Montana legacy or anything. Walsh never did anything in the NFL post-Montana either which kinda silenced that 1. Shanahan got Elway over the hump and they were a dominant run game, but he did nothing after Elway? So who needed who? I'd still say Elway was likely more valuable even at his advanced age.

Belichick is considered 1 of 1 for coaches (he is de facto GM too) though, at this exact moment in time he is the outlier whereas Brady has like 5-7 guys you could credibly call his peers. No one really is ever like "I'd take XYZ coach over Belichick"....Whether Brady is the best QB or not, he has the best resume so as that resume kept building, it just became a chic thing for people who didn't think he was one of the best or didn't like him since he is polarizing (not the people in this thread) to say he had BB and others didn't.

Obviously you only get so many years to see these guys, some just avoid having to stick around too long and be seen with their makeup off obviously (Walsh, Marv Levy), some do stick around too long and have that happen (Gibbs in his comeback, Knoll, Shanahan, Parcells, J Johnson)

I personally wouldn't take him over the very best QB's but if he has a 2nd run here with NE and avoids the pitfalls that others haven't been able to avoid, then I think it would put him in rarified air for coaches atleast to where it would be an acceptable opinion that he was as valuable as TB (I still probably wouldn't believe it, but it would be close enough that i'd find the debate kinda pointless)

What type of success will BB have without Brady? I guess we'll findout sooner than later, but he is off to a pretty good start this year. The cupboard was getting bare last few years then he really hit some moves out of the park over the last year at the exact right time he needed to.

 

[SheriffJoe]

PatsFan, I would argue those SuperBowls in Denver were mostly Terrell Davis rather than Mike Shanahan and John Elway. Without Davis, Elway could still be in the same ringless company as Kelly and Marino. It's a shame his career was cut short because Davis was a beast.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Well it was Shanahan's zone read system that made Davis the player he was too. They went in the opposite direction of the rest of the NFL and got fast, agile lineman. Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary and Clinton Portis (who Shanny somehow flipped for elite CB Champ Bailey in 1 of the worst deals the Redskins ever made) all had a lot of success in Denver's system too. But they didn't have Elway anymore and they didn't win more than the occasional playoff game every other year post-Elway (to be fair, they didn't lose to chopped liver either, but Shanny from '00-08 only won like 3 playoff games)

That's the biggest reason it looks like Belichick is on his way to standing the test of time too though. Because there is no Belichick system, there is no west coast offense, zone blocking scheme, zone blitz, Air Coryell, Air Raid, Greatest Show on Turf, Tampa 2, Seattle cover 3 etc etc...All this stuff has to evolve over time

His system is adaptability, playing lefthanded, righthanded, to your strengths, to attack opponents weaknesses, run heavy, pass heavy. There is nothing to "figure out"

That's also why his assistants mostly suck in new jobs too, cause they don't really have anything to bring elsewhere and being an authoritarian dick when you've won 0 rings as HC doesn't really work. Flores seems to understand this pretty well and is trying to forge his own way, whereas McDaniel, Patricia thought they were the son of a untouchable mob boss.

 

[phdinsports]

Because there is no Belichick system,

Oh there is, it's called cheating by illegally taping the other team. I mean putting that much effort into taping the Bungles, one of the worst teams in the league, lord only knows what schemes they have in place for top tiered teams!